What's wrong with this picture? - Page 3 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #21 of 31 Old 05-13-16, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
RTS100x5 wrote: View Post
Why do most ppl hate what they can't afford ?
I don't know jealousy I suppose. I personally think it looks very clean and classy. I don't care how it sounds looks alone it's stunning.
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post #22 of 31 Old 05-13-16, 08:30 PM
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I don't understand the negative comments either.
I have listened to $12k speakers and I have listened to $60k speakers.
The $12k speakers sounded great and the $60k speakers sounded even better, actually a lot better.
I also would not presume that anyone that can afford the entire setup in the picture (location / view included) knows nothing about what they are buying.
Is the room acoustically optimal, probably not, but that does not mean you should put an AM radio in the corner and call it good enough.
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post #23 of 31 Old 05-14-16, 02:26 PM
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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

My 2-ch HeManRig sports speakers in the $20k range (MSRP). I could not really afford them, and did not purchase them lightly. They provided the next leap in performance I craved which - to the best of my knowledge and experience at the time - could not be obtained through continual "upgrading" in the same speaker class and price range. I am still satisfied with them over 10 years later, and still feel no need to upgrade. Have I heard more expensive speakers? No! Do I want to? No! Why not? Because that might raise the bar, leaving me dissatisfied with a system I could ill-afford to upgrade a second time. One thing I don't do, though, is trash-talk a potential improvement; even if it is the stuff of Kings.


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post #24 of 31 Old 05-16-16, 12:48 PM
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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Quote:
Lumen wrote: View Post
My 2-ch HeManRig sports speakers in the $20k range (MSRP). I could not really afford them, and did not purchase them lightly. They provided the next leap in performance I craved which - to the best of my knowledge and experience at the time - could not be obtained through continual "upgrading" in the same speaker class and price range. I am still satisfied with them over 10 years later, and still feel no need to upgrade. Have I heard more expensive speakers? No! Do I want to? No! Why not? Because that might raise the bar, leaving me dissatisfied with a system I could ill-afford to upgrade a second time. One thing I don't do, though, is trash-talk a potential improvement; even if it is the stuff of Kings.
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I agree totally especially this:"Have I heard more expensive speakers? No! Do I want to? No! Why not? Because that might raise the bar, leaving me dissatisfied with a system I could ill-afford to upgrade a second time. "
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post #25 of 31 Old 05-17-16, 09:13 AM Thread Starter
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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Over and over again double blind tests have shown that we hear what we want to hear, that is, if we know what we are listening to.

Of course, at the very bottom end, there is a difference, and likely what one could call a quality difference. Eventually the curve flattens out and differences tend to be what I refer to as "what's your favorite cocktail?" The fun begins when trying to determine where the curve flattens out. In some cases there is not much of a curve, say comparing a $20.00 cable vs a $200.00 cable. I suspect it flattens out at $19.95.

Technologically usually flattens out at some point. Take for example automobiles. Back when I was a kid with my first car, a 1949 Chevy, (in 1956) after 100,000 miles you needed a complete overhaul: rings, valves, etc. Now that is just an oil change and some adjustments. Sales pitches, tv ads, etc. for new cars is all about creature comforts, blind spot video, auto seat adjustments, and so forth. The difference between a $40,000.00 car and a $20,000 one is the add-ons, the basic guts are pretty much the same.

Little has changed in the basic technology of the transducers -- speakers and mics -- since the 60's, -- perhaps excepting Howard Roger's patent for compression guide. But transducers are based on mass moved by a magnetic field. Technology has built in limits, once you arrive and "near perfect" reproduction, then tweaks tend to squirt out somewhere in the reproduction, causing an endless series of tweaks and more blips on the screen, or if you will, coloring the sound ever so slightly.

Anecdotal evidence is extremely poor, and in most cases, worthless. I too could tell the >>difference<< between a $20,000.00 speaker set vs a $60,000.00 set. Because no two sets will sound the same, due to those final tweaks which adds "color" to the system. Ala -- the cocktail. Which is the best? A Martini, a Side Car or an Old Fashion, it's a silly question, it's which do you like best.

Judgement is always colored by circumstances. One study showed that people rated the video projection quality superior when there was great sound accompanying the projection. Just some slight tweaks to the sound, a subwoofer added and some surround, and the focus group rated the video quality better though it remained the same. I would guess that the mere sight of those spectacular looking MBL speakers completely bias the sound they produce.

--Dick Sullivan
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post #26 of 31 Old 05-19-16, 06:49 AM
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You must not have attended AXPONA. Listening to the MBL 101 X-tremes was a... dare i say... life changing event. For the first time i listened to a piano recording and had to look twice to make sure there wasnt a Steinway in the room. The realism and "being there" factor was off the charts. They played Thriller on 1/2 inch master tape and the volume was at 11 (my Galaxy S5 SPL meter app said 98db however accurate that is) but it was so clean and crisp... like i have never heard it before or since. My stereo is no slouch a pair of B&W 802 Diamonds with 600w Monoblocks and i listen to music now and feel a little dissapointed for no other reason than the MBLs are flat out in a different universe. I am done gushing now but i truly meant what i said about the sound being life changing. Hopefully if im patient a pair will show up on the secondary market at a more reasonable price.
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post #27 of 31 Old 05-19-16, 09:23 AM Thread Starter
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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

Showcattleguy,

I don't doubt for a minute that it was a stunning experience listening to those speakers.

Certainly being able to produce enough SPL in a very large room takes some very good design and engineering.

Lots of things make up the "experience." I recall taking my 17 year old son to hear The Who at the LA Coliseum in 1982. It was my first time at a stadium concert and the sound was awesome, though I doubt from all of the reverb etc that it was really that good, considering. That much good sound in that big of a space was awesome in itself. Because a slight fog moved in from the Pacific which caused something of an inversion layer holding in the smoke from the stadium which also added to the experience -- second hand smoke, if you will.

There are built in design limitations that peak out at a certain point. For instance how much weight is in the cone material. Too light and thin it will distort, to heavy and you can't stop and move it back forth without inertia setting in. The magnetic field has a lag in reversing itself. In the 60's there was a speaker system that used ionized helium moved magnetically as a tweater. Yes, it needed tanks of gas! I don't think they ever got to building middies or woofers with this system as you would likely need a Hindenburg parked out front provide the gas. The object here was to have a very lightweight mass to move. There are many physical limitations involved and once you hit the wall with those then you start having to teak things and one tweak fixing one problem almost always creates two more.

The next issue is the human element. We are all influenced by all our perceptions including the "mental" one. Knowing what it is one is listening to is a very biasing variable. That is why the best way for mere mortals to evaluate or compare systems is by a double blind test. And there are, many many double blind tests out there that are varied in quality that show how flawed our perceptions are when it comes to sound. And visual too as we all know! Like optical illusions as well, which leads me to question whether or not a similar phenomenons can exist in sound.

If I were MBL I certainly would not want this system tested in a double blind test against, say a very good system costing one forth as much? Or maybe even 10% of $250,000.00!

All of that said, I would not turn down an offer of a free set from my media room.

--Dick Sullivan
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post #28 of 31 Old 05-19-16, 04:41 PM
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While i do agree with some of your points i have a stereo that approaches 25% the cost of the X-tremes (total equip cost so if you wanted to spec a full MBL stereo then im just above the 10% mark) and it cannot hold a candle to the experience i received in an unfamiliar hotel conference room without any prior knowledge about MBL other than they looked expensive. I dont claim to be knowledgeable about how the speakers work although i did watch the youtube video that does a decent job explaining the tech. I can only attest to the emotional connection... like the speakers got out of the way of the music if that makes sense. Either way it doesnt matter. For what its worth they also had the another pair of MBLs at a more pedestrian $70,000/pair at AXPONA and they had none of the magic the X-tremes did. Just my experiences YMMV.
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post #29 of 31 Old 05-29-16, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
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Anecdotal evidence is extremely poor, and in most cases, worthless.
As are car analogies.

The MBL X-treme Axpona room used painstaking, objective measurements, room treatments and verification of the effects of these treatments. I suspect that had much to do with what we heard.

"I left in love, in laughter, and in truth and wherever truth, love and laughter abide, I am there in spirit." - Bill Hicks
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post #30 of 31 Old 05-29-16, 06:16 PM
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Re: What's wrong with this picture?

I'd spend $30K on a good-looking, good-sounding A/V set-up and pocket $220K. But that's just me.
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