Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com (https://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/)
-   Home Audio Speakers (https://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-speakers/)
-   -   Speakers not loud enough (https://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-speakers/85778-speakers-not-loud-enough.html)

harihalst2014 07-14-14 12:23 AM

Speakers not loud enough
 

Hi everyone. I purchased a Tascam PA-R100. It is rated for 80 WPC, but the speakers I have hooked into it have a rating of 50 RMS. The receivers max volume level is 80, and I have to turn it up to 55 to get a good surround sound effect, at 35 I can barely hear it. It seems like my receiver volume shouldn't need to be that high to get good sound from it. My question is, if I get more powerful speakers, will this help my issue? Any speaker recommendations?

gazoink 07-14-14 02:21 AM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

Quote:

harihalst2014 wrote: (Post 840754)
Hi everyone. I purchased a Tascam PA-R100. It is rated for 80 WPC, but the speakers I have hooked into it have a rating of 50 RMS. The receivers max volume level is 80, and I have to turn it up to 55 to get a good surround sound effect, at 35 I can barely hear it. It seems like my receiver volume shouldn't need to be that high to get good sound from it. My question is, if I get more powerful speakers, will this help my issue? Any speaker recommendations?

Your Tascam PA-R100 has Audyssey 2EQ in it for calibration. If you haven't done so, run through that procedure, it may straighten things out.

As to speakers, the power rating on a speaker has nothing to do with how loud it will play. It has to do with how much power they can take before some form of destruction occurs. 50W rated speakers are a bit light for most HT applications, as AVR power begins at 80wpc, with many models well over 100wpc.

The figure you need to look for is "sensitivity" or "efficiency", specified typically in a dB figure at 1 watt and at a distance of 1 meter. For HT, the high 80s to mid 90s is about right. Old home HIFI speakers in the low 80s just won't play that loud for you.

But do the first suggestion first, run Audyssey, follow the directions carefully. Put the mic where your ears would be, and those of several others who might enjoy your system with you. Don't do just one mic position, and don't set the mic on the seat of your couch or chair.

Oh, and a read-through of the basic setup instructions is a good idea.

harihalst2014 07-14-14 02:31 AM

I have ran Audyssey. My speakers are rated for 91db. Their average output is 50 watts and their max is 100. I don't have a subwoofer yet. Would that factor in? Maybe too much stress on the mains?

gazoink 07-14-14 03:02 AM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

Quote:

harihalst2014 wrote: (Post 840818)
I have ran Audyssey. My speakers are rated for 91db. Their average output is 50 watts and their max is 100. I don't have a subwoofer yet. Would that factor in? Maybe too much stress on the mains?

No, not likely. "Normal" volume setting would probably be about 70. Is that about what you get?

harihalst2014 07-14-14 03:04 AM

Are you saying the volume should be closer to max level (80)?

gazoink 07-14-14 05:06 AM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

I've read the manual and completely understand your confusion. The volume control is scaled in 0-80, and is scaled in dB. The manual talks about "film reference" level, which after Audyssey calibration, occurs at a volume control setting of "0". Except it doesn't. Because, I'm betting, when your volume control displays "0", that's the minimum, not "film reference" at all. Your maximum is 80.

Basically, Tascam blew it. The volume control reading makes little sense on the surface, and they don't explain it in the manual at all. However, I'll bet that "film reference" happens when the control is set for 75. In fact, if you played a reference noise test signal (from THX Optimizer or similar) and measured your sound level with an sound level meter, you'd probably read 75dB SPL with the volume control set for 75.

This means that your normal listening level will probably be between 65 to 70 on the volume control. This is completely normal operation, as most people find "film reference" volume too loud at home. But when you want to hear what the sound mixers heard during the creation of a film soundtrack, wang that baby up to 75.

You won't hear much at 35 or 40, which is also normal.

Shame on Tascam for doing such a shoddy job of explaining this, and making a serious error in their manual.

harihalst2014 07-14-14 10:21 AM

Wow. Thank you! I would have never figured that out. So what you're saying, is there's no damage by playing it that loud.

harihalst2014 07-14-14 10:28 AM

I was concerned, because the old Optimus receiver I replaced was rated about the same and I could never turn it put past about 35%.

gazoink 07-14-14 10:31 AM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

mmmm....well, sort . If your speakers are really 91dB/1w/1m, then you should not have a problem playing loud and not toasting them. But you can over power them by 160%, and there's always a bit confusion as to how a manufacturer rates the speaker's power handling. Is it RMS/continuous, is it "music power", what? Responsibly manufacturers will state a continuous power rating and a peak, or "music power" rating, the former being usually substantially lower than the latter.

So, no guarantees. Just take it easy at first. Tweeters blow fast, woers cook slowly, crossovers smoke.

harihalst2014 07-14-14 11:23 AM

It has 50 RMS, and 100 peak. I don't think I have ever had a receiver rated in dB. So I'm used to never having the receiver past 50%. I was just concerned as this is a commercial grade receiver.

harihalst2014 07-14-14 11:24 AM

And I believe one of my surrounds has blown something. At it's crossover frequency (90hz) it makes almost like a warping sound.

gazoink 07-15-14 01:21 AM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

Quote:

harihalst2014 wrote: (Post 841178)
It has 50 RMS, and 100 peak. I don't think I have ever had a receiver rated in dB. So I'm used to never having the receiver past 50%. I was just concerned as this is a commercial grade receiver.

Actually, while there are various specifications that are stated in dB, a receiver isn't rated in dB. A dB is not a fixed unit of measurement, it's the log of a ratio of two values. Confusing, I know, but that's life. In the case of your AVR, the reference is roughly the threshold of hearing, or 0 dB SPL. So when you dial up 75, that would mean it should correlate to a reference test noise signal playing back at 75dB SPL, as referenced to the threshold of hearing. Your AVR probably doesn't follow those rules exactly, but that's the idea. It all came from having an actual reference volume level in film sound production. You wouldn't have seen any of that in an old stereo receiver because the music industry has no such fixed reference level.

All AVRs today have their volume controls scaled in dB because it does actually make more sense than the "old way", which was a knob on a variable control that may have a linear control characteristic, or it may have a log characteristic, or a hybrid "audio taper" characteristic. Regardless, "50%" or half way up on the knob really mean radically different things on different devices, so the standard became a digital volume control scaled in dB. Your old Optimus for example may have played quite loud at 35%, but that's a percent of knob rotation only, nothing more.

You can't readily compare a percent of knob rotation to a dB ratio.

Things work differently these days!

|Tch0rT| 07-16-14 12:36 AM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

Quote:

harihalst2014 wrote: (Post 840754)
Hi everyone. I purchased a Tascam PA-R100. It is rated for 80 WPC, but the speakers I have hooked into it have a rating of 50 RMS. The receivers max volume level is 80, and I have to turn it up to 55 to get a good surround sound effect, at 35 I can barely hear it. It seems like my receiver volume shouldn't need to be that high to get good sound from it. My question is, if I get more powerful speakers, will this help my issue? Any speaker recommendations?

There is no issue, you have an expectation that you shouldn't have to turn the volume control up more than 50% for you to hear sound. I have the Tascam PA-R200 and I can switch between Absolute (yours is 0-80) and Relative:

Quote:

Absolute:
Displayed range is Min, 1 to 99, Max.
Relative (THX):
Displayed range is –∞dB, –81dB to +18dB.
I use Relative. While the "scale" is different between the 2 receivers on mine for regular TV shows I have to have it at -30 to hear it at a normal kind of level or so and that's about 50% on the volume dial so to speak. For movies I have to boost it by another 5 to 10 more steps so it's kinda close to your 55 out of 80 (factors like speaker sensitivity/efficiency, room size, and listening distances makes this more complicated to compare our setups accurately). Don't worry about the "position of the dial", as long as you can get it to the volume level you want who cares if it's 70 out of 80 or 30 out of 80.


Quote:

gazoink wrote: (Post 840858)
I've read the manual and completely understand your confusion. The volume control is scaled in 0-80, and is scaled in dB. The manual talks about "film reference" level, which after Audyssey calibration, occurs at a volume control setting of "0". Except it doesn't. Because, I'm betting, when your volume control displays "0", that's the minimum, not "film reference" at all. Your maximum is 80.

Basically, Tascam blew it. The volume control reading makes little sense on the surface, and they don't explain it in the manual at all. However, I'll bet that "film reference" happens when the control is set for 75. In fact, if you played a reference noise test signal (from THX Optimizer or similar) and measured your sound level with an sound level meter, you'd probably read 75dB SPL with the volume control set for 75.

Shame on Tascam for doing such a shoddy job of explaining this, and making a serious error in their manual.

FWIW The Tascam receivers are rebadged Onkyo/Integra receivers. The PA-R200 is an Integra DTR-30.4 and the PA-R100 is an Integra DTR-20.4. The manuals for the Tascam's reference Onkyo WRAT, Onkyo iPod docks, and Onkyo/Integra RIHD compatibility. Also I find it amusing that my PC says the EDID for my Tascam PA-R200 identifies it as an Onkyo PA-R200. The Audyssey Calibration references to 0 as film reference is a mistake made in both the Tascam PA-R100 and Integra DTR-20.4 manuals since they don't offer the Relative (THX) modes for volume scales, it's just a sloppy copy and paste job from the shared features of the PA-R100/200 and DTR-20.4/30.4. :/

gazoink 07-16-14 12:38 AM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

Quote:

|Tch0rT| wrote: (Post 843098)
There is no issue, you have an expectation that you shouldn't have to turn the volume control up more than 50% for you to hear sound. I have the Tascam PA-R200 and I can switch between Absolute (yours is 0-80) and Relative:


/

The' OP's AVR doesn't have the "relative" option. Verified that by checking the RS-232 code list.

zieglj01 07-16-14 03:01 AM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

It would be a small miracle if the sensitivity specs on the OP's Optiimus speakers
were correct or near 91 db.

The Tascam based on Integra/Onkyo - has power to drive less sensitive speakers,
I also own the PA-R200. I drive speakers rated 86/87 db sensitive and have nice
room left on the volume dial.

The receivers do have some headroom and can get loud.

zieglj01 07-16-14 03:11 AM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

Quote:

harihalst2014 wrote: (Post 841106)
I was concerned, because the old Optimus receiver I replaced was rated about the same and I could never turn it put past about 35%.

It has 50 RMS, and 100 peak.

And I believe one of my surrounds has blown something. At it's crossover frequency (90hz) it makes almost like a warping sound.

The older receivers - were not calibrating the volume level correctly.
They would get too loud early - and the power would not be as clean
as you continue to turn up the volume.

You now own a nice receiver - with good clean power and some headroom.

However, there is only so much that your speakers can take - 100 watts is
short term peak power. There is also limited crossover protection on those
Optimus speakers. Most only have a high pass filter on the tweeter. The
woofers are really budget-friendly quality, and can easily burp.

However the speakers you have can hold you, till you upgrade.

mvision7m 07-16-14 02:17 PM

Quote:

gazoink wrote: (Post 840858)
I've read the manual and completely understand your confusion. The volume control is scaled in 0-80, and is scaled in dB. The manual talks about "film reference" level, which after Audyssey calibration, occurs at a volume control setting of "0". Except it doesn't. Because, I'm betting, when your volume control displays "0", that's the minimum, not "film reference" at all. Your maximum is 80. Basically, Tascam blew it. The volume control reading makes little sense on the surface, and they don't explain it in the manual at all. However, I'll bet that "film reference" happens when the control is set for 75. In fact, if you played a reference noise test signal (from THX Optimizer or similar) and measured your sound level with an sound level meter, you'd probably read 75dB SPL with the volume control set for 75. This means that your normal listening level will probably be between 65 to 70 on the volume control. This is completely normal operation, as most people find "film reference" volume too loud at home. But when you want to hear what the sound mixers heard during the creation of a film soundtrack, wang that baby up to 75. You won't hear much at 35 or 40, which is also normal. Shame on Tascam for doing such a shoddy job of explaining this, and making a serious error in their manual.

Great job with that assist. Explained it perfectly.

tonyvdb 07-16-14 03:28 PM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

In the old days (20 years ago) the volume at about 50% was max and at distortion levels, today the volumes are not set up in the same way. If you have run the auto room correction at its maximum level so in your case 80 would be pushing the receiver to output above reference levels (I also agree Tascam messed up the display readings as it makes no sense) How large is your room your using this system in?

gazoink 07-16-14 05:39 PM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

Quote:

zieglj01 wrote: (Post 843210)

However, there is only so much that your speakers can take - 100 watts is
short term peak power. There is also limited crossover protection on those
Optimus speakers. Most only have a high pass filter on the tweeter. The
woofers are really budget-friendly quality, and can easily burp.

However the speakers you have can hold you, till you upgrade.

The OP said he had an old Optimus receiver, but hasn't mentioned the brand or model of the speakers. (OP? We're dying to know!)

And all warnings as to over-powering speakers are reasonable, and worth heeding.

gazoink 07-16-14 05:52 PM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

Quote:

tonyvdb wrote: (Post 843825)
How large is your room your using this system in?

Good question, but room size, while interesting, isn't really the key. More important would be how far away from the speakers is the listening position? And, if we could verify the speaker make/model, and then the actual efficiency, it's quite easy to predict if there's a power handling issue or not.

Remember, in most cases, average power at 20W is pretty loud. Just considering one speaker and a single channel, if system max is 80W, and reference levels are -20dB below system max, then reference level would play at under a watt. Loud averages would be under 20W. Only peaks would ever come close to full output. If the speaker is 91dB/w/m, and he sits two meters away (6.5 feet), his reference levels would still be at a very loud 84dB SPL. With both speakers running, the peak SPL would be over 107dB SPL. And for normal listening, nothing would burn up, out, or down.

zieglj01 07-16-14 08:25 PM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

Quote:

gazoink wrote: (Post 843921)
The OP said he had an old Optimus receiver, but hasn't mentioned the brand or model of the speakers. (OP? We're dying to know!)

And all warnings as to over-powering speakers are reasonable, and worth heeding.

Here are the speakers - I have been through the Optimus/RadioShack parade.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tml#post831386

The Optimus receiver may, or may not be by Technics/Panasonic

gazoink 07-16-14 09:58 PM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

Quote:

zieglj01 wrote: (Post 844089)
Here are the speakers - I have been through the Optimus/RadioShack parade.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tml#post831386

The Optimus receiver may, or may not be by Technics/Panasonic


OP, are those your speakers?

I looked at the manual, though in Spanish, they are in fact spec'ed at 90dB/1w/1m.

zieglj01 07-16-14 10:12 PM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

Quote:

gazoink wrote: (Post 844185)
OP, are those your speakers?

I looked at the manual, though in Spanish, they are in fact spec'ed at 90dB/1w/1m.

I have owned 2 of them speakers > the STS-100 and Pro-77 > It would be
a small miracle, if they in fact measured according to their sensitivity specs.

The STS-100 only has a high pass filter (1 cap ea) for the midrange and the tweeter.

If I remember correctly, the Pro-77 woofer also runs free - and only a small coil and
cap for the tweeter.

They do best at moderate levels - and a subwoofer for sure will help them out.

gazoink 07-16-14 11:46 PM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

Quote:

zieglj01 wrote: (Post 844217)
I have owned 2 of them speakers > the STS-100 and Pro-77 > It would be
a small miracle, if they in fact measured according to their sensitivity specs.

Perhaps, but even if they're 3dB off, he'll still play plenty loud enough.
Quote:

zieglj01 wrote: (Post 844217)
The STS-100 only has a high pass filter (1 cap ea) for the midrange and the tweeter.

If I remember correctly, the Pro-77 woofer also runs free - and only a small coil and
cap for the tweeter.

Yeah, pretty basic. Although, that doesn't necessarily mean "bad", some of the more basic speakers were/are spectacular. I don't think the crossover design would hamper sensitivity, but the caps might age-out and mess with crossover frequencies at very least.
Quote:

zieglj01 wrote: (Post 844217)
They do best at moderate levels - and a subwoofer for sure will help them out.

At least that's better than doing their best when disconnected!

Subs help everything out...except your marriage.

harihalst2014 07-16-14 11:49 PM

Yes, those are my speakers, (the STS-100's and Pro 77's.

zieglj01 07-17-14 01:21 AM

Re: Speakers not loud enough
 

Quote:

gazoink wrote: (Post 844353)
Perhaps, but even if they're 3dB off, he'll still play plenty loud enough.

Yeah, pretty basic. Although, that doesn't necessarily mean "bad", some of the more basic speakers were/are spectacular. I don't think the crossover design would hamper sensitivity, but the caps might age-out and mess with crossover frequencies at very least.

They can play loud and get loud for a lot of people - however, loud and
clean is another thing.

I know the caps really do not effect the sensitivity - it is more about the
voice coil and magnets.

The RadioShack speakers can be decent >> however I never owned, or
heard a spectacular one yet.

However, the OP has something to keep him going for a while - as long as
he is not a head-banger!


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:41 PM.

Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Copyright ©2006 - 2019, Home Theater Shack, LLC.


vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

 


For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome