Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed! - Page 4 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
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post #31 of 110 Old 01-13-17, 03:53 PM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

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Hi guys, and thanks for the support!
Each of you has helped me advance along my HT learning at some point. Now the time has come to exercise some of that knowledge in pursuit of even better sound. Yes, I'm one of those pseudo HT nuts who places audio on a higher pedestal than video (at least until such time as I can afford for the latter's funds to surpass the former's). You will all laugh-out-loud very long and hard to find out that I am running my Salons mismatched to a B&W center channel in that tiny Green room of mine! The Salons are quite the behemoths in that cramped space, and wouldn't fare much better in the marginally larger "Eeek" room. But whether a product of my psychoacoustic imagination or my exceptionally well-honed, speaker setup skillset (hah-hah), the Salons convincingly disappear in outright audiophile fashion when reproducing up-to-snuff program material. So why oh why does dissatisfaction prevail? One Word. MMD! Mushy Movie Dialogue. Maybe it's me, maybe it's the source material, but I can't seem to understand dialogue as easily and recently as a few months ago.

Dirac Live calibrations don't drift the way a capacitors can, so I need to ask myself, "What's changed?" On the other hand, maybe I've slowly acclimated to the Salons! What was initially a dance over superior sound on 2ch music and multichannel concert videos, has become a convulsion over mostly incoherent murmuring. No blown tweets or mids. No changes in speaker position. My plan of attack is to first try a source with a known-good center signal. Then try a recalibration if that fails to turn up anything.

Those who don't know me may wish I'd just go back away rather than try to decipher my ramblings. BUT MY NAME IS LOU, AND i LOVE MY SELF!!
So I stay put. Hah! Or as the Knights Who Say "Nee" would say, I now say to you: "Nee!"

Winding down and back to the point...
My system needs more tweaking. This holiday weekend I plan to revamp the room and speaker setup. The room has become too dead as I've shoehorned in more and more bass traps. Time to back off on the wall panels as well. Then there's the speaker Combo Abomino - time to match the front set again, even if it means reverting back to the B&W's or shelling out some mean green for the Revel center. I've seen some used ones cross eBay recently for close to a song. Just couldn't pull the trigger so soon after Christmas and family Birthdays.


...while this is a rough draft of unfinished work, it's quittin' time on Friday afternoon and I need to head out the door.
My room is also on the verge of to dead... I would like to make some diffusion panels like GIK has for placing over my absorption panels. I wish they would offer kits of just the wood with the pattern cutout for DIYers too.

My Home Living room Theater
Samsung 65" FP, Yamaha CX-A5100, Xilica XP4080, (4) Klipsch RP160MS, (4) JBL 8340As, (2) Yamaha P2500s amps, PS3, XBox One, (1) Asus mini pc, (2) Furman Power Conditioners, Darbee Darcet, and a Project RPM 1.5 Carbon turntable..
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post #32 of 110 Old 01-13-17, 04:02 PM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

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...Yes, I'm one of those pseudo HT nuts who places audio on a higher pedestal than video...
Huh? There is another way of looking at it?

Quote:
...the Salons convincingly disappear in outright audiophile fashion when reproducing up-to-snuff program material...
Enough said. The Salons stay put.

Quote:
Dirac Live calibrations don't drift the way a capacitors can, so I need to ask myself, "What's changed?"
You? The atmosphere in your part of the world? Did you cross into a parallel dimension (this can be difficult to determine; PM for details - (joking, of course))?

Quote:
On the other hand, maybe I've slowly acclimated to the Salons! What was initially a dance over superior sound on 2ch music and multichannel concert videos, has become a convulsion over mostly incoherent murmuring. No blown tweets or mids. No changes in speaker position. My plan of attack is to first try a source with a known-good center signal. Then try a recalibration if that fails to turn up anything.
Good plan!

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Or as the Knights Who Say "Nee" would say, I now say to you: "Nee!"
Bring us a shrubbery!

Quote:
Winding down and back to the point...
My system needs more tweaking. This holiday weekend I plan to revamp the room and speaker setup. The room has become too dead as I've shoehorned in more and more bass traps. Time to back off on the wall panels as well. Then there's the speaker Combo Abomino - time to match the front set again, even if it means reverting back to the B&W's or shelling out some mean green for the Revel center. I've seen some used ones cross eBay recently for close to a song. Just couldn't pull the trigger so soon after Christmas and family Birthdays.
Keep us posted. Life is a series of modifications to one's audio system.
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post #33 of 110 Old 01-13-17, 04:14 PM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

Lou. How your ramblings make me feel....there are others like me. First, I'm jealous of you for having the salons. Second, despite many complaints of movie dialogue intelligibility, I might be suspicious of the B&W in general. Blasphemy? Maybe but my jbl center never has me guessing, and I'm 14' away. I would definitely try to pick up the revel center. I'm a believer in timber matching and the haters might attack but I don't care. I'm pretty sure they're just cheap and lazy. Being matched probably won't become the be all end all for intelligibility in your room but having as seamless a front stage as you can, won't hurt. Try some familiar music in pro logic where the center is put to good use and see how that works. If the B&W is still not clear I might be assured it's the offender. If not, maybe it's the voices.....in my head.


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post #34 of 110 Old 01-13-17, 06:15 PM Thread Starter
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Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

Hmm. Thought I strayed off-topic, so your kind words and suppressed laughter are appreciated! Conditions are poor from technical standpoints such as mismatched tweeter height, forced compromises in speaker positioning, etc., etc., etc. I remember now that I edited my house curve about the time MMD reared its ugly head. Sounded good at the time with a limited range of source - not demo - material because I try to tune my curve for average recordings. I think that shows "better" is sometimes just "different" and other times actually worse.

Maybe this discussion does belong in my Green Room thread, but any time taken away from home projects does inject a sense of haste into the room/system recalibration I plan for this weekend. So haste is on topic!

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post #35 of 110 Old 01-13-17, 06:22 PM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

If you suspect the B&W center is the source of your dialogue troubles, run on into your processor and tell it you don't have a center channel. Then your Salons will phantom-image the stuff intended for the center channel. Take a listen to some of the material you've struggled with and see if things improve. This might be a way to narrow down where the problem really lies. It will only cost you half an hour of your time and would help prove or disprove the choice of center channel being the source of the trouble. Just a thought.

You might also want to use REW and measure your center channel response at your listening seat. Perhaps there's a huge floor or ceiling bounce suckout causing the problem. If that is the case, EQ wouldn't be able to completely take care of it, and neither would another speaker placed in the same location.

Edit: Just saw your new post above. Excessive output in the low frequencies can certainly mask the higher frequencies important for intelligibility. Do you have problems in quiet scenes with just dialogue, or mostly in louder, action-filled scenes?
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post #36 of 110 Old 01-13-17, 06:47 PM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

I would have to most humbly submit that the B&W center will never sound match the Revels as they are two different beasties. Well one set is a beast and the other maybe lives more closely to the moniker of delicate flower. Having been blown away by the Revels and having lived with B&W's I can say with some authority that you either have to pick all B&W in the front stage or all Salon. Now as suggest above, in that green room of love, I would most heartily suggest using phantom mode for the center as the somewhat monolithic Salons will take over the room and spread a sound stage like few others, excepting mine of course. ()

When traveling through the valley of the downsized, it becomes clear that some sacrifices need to be made. I think you are correct in that there might be a tad too many silences hanging about which may cause some lack of life in your music library but then again, they also keep the outside clatter to a minimum. I am lucky in that my room is somewhat isolated from everything so once I enter the Tranquility Base, and shut the hatch door, I am blissfully unaware of the rest of the world....well until the dog barks and wants to come in and play fetch with a spare interconnect cable....or when the cat wants to be petted and will sit on my head until I give in, but those are mere technicalities of course.

To parse this missive down to less than Dickensian size, I would say, DO NOT get rid of the Salons unless you feel you will never have a proper room again in this life or the next one just to be sure. It would be very difficult to replace them by us mere mortals which it seems you may have become. I say that in a most loving fashion of course. Apparently like many of us you have to temporarily step down from Mount Aurolympus and cleverly mix among the mortals of this time and space. Good Luck ooo Great One !!

Good Listening

Jack

"For those who believe no proof is needed for those who don't believe no proof is possible"
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post #37 of 110 Old 01-13-17, 06:53 PM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

I certainly agree that the Revel center would be a better match for the Salons, and I would head that way too if I were you. But depending on the source of the problem, your intelligibility may not improve just by moving to the matching Revel center. That's all I'm sayin'
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post #38 of 110 Old 01-13-17, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

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bkeeler10 wrote: View Post
If you suspect the B&W center is the source of your dialogue troubles, run on into your processor and tell it you don't have a center channel. Then your Salons will phantom-image the stuff intended for the center channel. Take a listen to some of the material you've struggled with and see if things improve. This might be a way to narrow down where the problem really lies. It will only cost you half an hour of your time and would help prove or disprove the choice of center channel being the source of the trouble. Just a thought.

You might also want to use REW and measure your center channel response at your listening seat. Perhaps there's a huge floor or ceiling bounce suckout causing the problem. If that is the case, EQ wouldn't be able to completely take care of it, and neither would another speaker placed in the same location.

Edit: Just saw your new post above. Excessive output in the low frequencies can certainly mask the higher frequencies important for intelligibility. Do you have problems in quiet scenes with just dialogue, or mostly in louder, action-filled scenes?

If that's just a thought, I like the way you think! And I'd like to apologize for the lack of any hard science or links. many of you talented folk out there help others transform themselves into REW-literates. I would love a walk-through of some of its advanced (to me) features. For now though I may just need to massage my house curve.



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post #39 of 110 Old 01-13-17, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
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Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

Quote:
bkeeler10 wrote: View Post
If you suspect the B&W center is the source of your dialogue troubles, run on into your processor and tell it you don't have a center channel. Then your Salons will phantom-image the stuff intended for the center channel. Take a listen to some of the material you've struggled with and see if things improve. This might be a way to narrow down where the problem really lies. It will only cost you half an hour of your time and would help prove or disprove the choice of center channel being the source of the trouble. Just a thought.
Quote:
willis7469 wrote: View Post
Try some familiar music in pro logic where the center is put to good use and see how that works. If the B&W is still not clear I might be assured it's the offender. If not, maybe it's the voices.....in my head.

Both of your suggestions are worthy experiments!
And speaking of voices, I was fooled into leaving the LP a few times in stereo mode to make sure certain vocals weren't coming from the center channel. IOW the Mains threw a convincing stage and imaged well, BUT only in the context of that small space. I'm amazed they image at all in there! I'll have to upload a picture later.


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Last edited by Lumen; 01-13-17 at 08:32 PM. Reason: EDIT: clarified "center"
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post #40 of 110 Old 01-13-17, 11:17 PM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

Quote:
Lumen wrote: View Post
Hmm. Thought I strayed off-topic, so your kind words and suppressed laughter are appreciated! Conditions are poor from technical standpoints such as mismatched tweeter height, forced compromises in speaker positioning, etc., etc., etc. I remember now that I edited my house curve about the time MMD reared its ugly head. Sounded good at the time with a limited range of source - not demo - material because I try to tune my curve for average recordings. I think that shows "better" is sometimes just "different" and other times actually worse.

Maybe this discussion does belong in my Green Room thread, but any time taken away from home projects does inject a sense of haste into the room/system recalibration I plan for this weekend. So haste is on topic!

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While the others were thinking about timbre-matching (love you guys, yer the BEST!), target curve is where I ended up.

Bryan's phantom center suggestion is excellent. I run that way all the time and love it.

A target curve suggestion: Add a tiny bump, 0.5 dB to 1 dB, between 2 kHz and 3 kHz.

My target curve file includes
1000 hz, 0 db
2000, +1
3000, +1
5000, 0

A lot of speakers have a little "liveliness" lift in that region by design. If 1 dB sounds a little extreme, try 0.5 dB. Speech intelligibility will be greatly improved.
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