Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed! - Page 5 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #41 of 110 Old 01-14-17, 09:28 AM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

Good morning everyone.

These are some interesting thoughts to be sure. It is my strong opinion that using a center channel in larger rooms is a must and in general that center channel should be voice matched to the mains. This is as we all know oft times not easily done as most center channel speakers are smaller and less capable than the mains which is odd considering the amount of work the center channel does. As Mr. Lumens room is somewhat smaller, there is no real reason to use a center. Having heard the Salon's, I can say that they are not as lively in the presence region as the B&W's and I would imagine if it comes down to it they may be too much speaker for this room. I know that sounds silly but they are substantial and may need a bit more room to breathe. The B&W's are well sized for the green room and leave substantive space on all sides although having said that, i think Lumen is not overly pleased with their mild tubby-ness in the lower ranges.

This is such a hard hobby made more complex by all the new digital gadgets and geegaws. I do hope our musicologist buddy does find a way to make everything work to his satisfaction.

Good Listening

Jack

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post #42 of 110 Old 01-14-17, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
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Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

Quote:
AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
A target curve suggestion: Add a tiny bump, 0.5 dB to 1 dB, between 2 kHz and 3 kHz.

My target curve file includes
1000 hz, 0 db
2000, +1
3000, +1
5000, 0

A lot of speakers have a little "liveliness" lift in that region by design. If 1 dB sounds a little extreme, try 0.5 dB. Speech intelligibility will be greatly improved.
Huge help and appreciated! Jogged my memory of a chart I came across which defined typical sounds (wooly, bright, etc.) in terms of frequency. A google search turns up many variations just as useful.

Just using this space as a notepad for the moment. I also remember dialing in a 2-3dB cut from around 2kHz-4kHz to tame perceived harshness. Should've consulted the chart instead of tuning by ear on limited source material. Or better yet, commit it to memory. Anyway, I can always develop different curves for different quality sources by taking advantage of my processor's ability to download different curves. But having to connect a laptop to run Dirac Live/LE is inconvenient. I'll have to dig out he user manual to see if I can download from a thumb drive instead.

Relationship between mains position and toe-in relative to center channel plants Salons' huge reflective side panels into listening path. Room correction s/w may compensate, but the goal is to make its job easier, so try some absorptive panels. They can be temporarily leaned in place against the speakers on the floor.

Remove wall panels at 2nd reflection points to help liven listening end of room. Would like to swap 16" dia traps with 20" ones, but too much work for one afternoon.

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.
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Last edited by Lumen; 01-14-17 at 11:59 AM. Reason: EDIT: More thoughts
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post #43 of 110 Old 01-17-17, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

Those of you still waiting for hard data will be disappointed at my lack of cooperation. The best I can do at the moment is to post the chart I've been using (see below). It's an EQ guide intended for recording engineers, but which applies to sound reproduction as well. For sound in the home, PEQ can deal with fine adjustments over a broad frequency range and vice versa. We may not have precise control at the end of the room correction chain if our AVR leaves us with only a house curve to manipulate. Individual PEQ bands which are independent of the room correction presets are needed to further refine the sound. Through a combination of manual PEQ and slight change to my house curve, I was able to coax speech intelligibility from the system. Now to perfect it (what a lofty goal)! Still would like to revamp and recal a few things in the room. Next 3-day weekend?

.
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post #44 of 110 Old 01-17-17, 03:50 PM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

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post #45 of 110 Old 01-17-17, 03:54 PM
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post #46 of 110 Old 01-17-17, 05:06 PM Thread Starter
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Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

Lol! Insert famous excuse "It wasn't my fault" from the Blues Brothers here.

I confess! I used PEQ as a band-aid because by the time I found out I was disappointed in the auto target curve, I'd already disconnected the laptop and tidied up Ethernet cables and such.

And my room is a How Not To HT that belongs more in the critique thread than it does here! But it sounds decent enough until I can commandeer larger quarters MWUUAAHH-Hah-Hah!

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post #47 of 110 Old 01-19-17, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

Now that I've been able to watch a few movies and concert videos, I can honestly say the sound is much improved (not just different). Voices have been lifted out of the mix so to speak. The harshness/scratchiness that originally compelled me to dial-in the 3dB dip centered at 3kHz has only slightly returned - enough to make itself noticeable, but not quite enough to be objectionable. Deep-bass vibrates the slab without creating bloat in the upper bands. "Punch" is back and improved over what I can remember (though I may have missed it for so long I forgot it wasn't there!).

Some heavy hitters have checked in here, and I still mean to take their advice regarding phantom center tests. That should clear up whether the harshness is perceived, or actually originates in the mains or the center. I did wind up taking their advice regarding low frequency masking of dialogue, and dialed-down the +3db lo-shelf to +1.5dB. The original value relied on guesswork rather than good reasoning, but that's what sounded good to me in the past, so that's what I went with. Last night I remembered Wayne's excellent House Curve article, where he states that "A house curve is perceived flat response – that is, it sounds flat, not measures flat. Thus it has to be subjective." He also mentions that a good Rule of Thumb is: "The smaller the room, the steeper the curve." I also remembered his System vs Program Compensation article, and am anxious to re-tune my curve after having reviewed both.

A few passages from the latter article bear repeating:
Quote:
Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote: View Post
...The notion of calling up a different house curve for everything that comes down the pike - or as I’d characterize it, deliberately un-calibrating the system - is not the proper way to do things. If certain discs or TV shows have, for example, bloated midbass – fine. I assume that’s the way the director or producer wanted it to sound, right or wrong. I’m not interested in re-tuning my whole system to “unbloat” his idea of “correct.” I have the benefit of a real time analyzer connected to my system that gives a visual display of all audio-program frequency response, so when I hear something that doesn’t sound right – bloated midbass, limited low extension, screaming treble, what have you - the RTA confirms that is indeed what the program is generating. It verifies my system is calibrated correctly and is accurately reproducing what it’s being fed – a rather satisfying feeling, actually.
I simply LOVE watching the lights on my RTA dance to the incoming signal! But I've never used that function in an official capacity. What a great way to (temporarily?) quelch Audiophilia-Nervosa! Who of us hasn't sat in the sweet spot and been underwhelmed or dissatisfied with the sound? Who hasn't wondered whether a new player or processor would be the next big step toward audio nirvana? Well, having one of these puppies in the chain is key to washing away all pyschosomatic doubt!

Quote:
Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote: View Post
Certainly, if you find yourself making the same adjustments on a regular basis – e.g. always dialing up the treble a few notches – then tweaking the system a bit further is in order to finalize your settings. With a properly calibrated system, most program material should be “in the ball park” as far as sounding balanced. That’s the goal, since perfection is unobtainable. Indeed, this is the one downside to having quality electronics and good speakers all properly calibrated for the room: you will quickly find out just how bad a lot of programming really is, especially when it comes to bass.
.
<snip>
.
I typically just use the receiver's tone controls or my subwoofer remote control (for level adjustment) for times like this, but it would be easy enough to dial in a pre-set curve of some type for certain problematic TV channels or shows that you frequent, if your system has the capability. But even such pre-sets should be recognized for what they are - temporary settings.
You're just too practical and convincing, Wayne.
I was wondering how I'd download a multitude of curves to an AVR with no presets. Even so, I'll aim to zero-in on a satisfyingly homogenized system curve. By "homogenized," I mean sufficiently generalized such that most source material will sound good.

.
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post #48 of 110 Old 01-19-17, 11:03 AM
 
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

Quote:
Lumen wrote: View Post
Now that I've been able to watch a few movies and concert videos, I can honestly say the sound is much improved (not just different). Voices have been lifted out of the mix so to speak. The harshness/scratchiness that originally compelled me to dial-in the 3dB dip centered at 3kHz has only slightly returned - enough to make itself noticeable, but not quite enough to be objectionable. Deep-bass vibrates the slab without creating bloat in the upper bands. "Punch" is back and improved over what I can remember (though I may have missed it for so long I forgot it wasn't there!).

Some heavy hitters have checked in here, and I still mean to take their advice regarding phantom center tests. That should clear up whether the harshness is perceived, or actually originates in the mains or the center. I did wind up taking their advice regarding low frequency masking of dialogue, and dialed-down the +3db lo-shelf to +1.5dB. The original value relied on guesswork rather than good reasoning, but that's what sounded good to me in the past, so that's what I went with. Last night I remembered Wayne's excellent House Curve article, where he states that "A house curve is perceived flat response – that is, it sounds flat, not measures flat. Thus it has to be subjective." He also mentions that a good Rule of Thumb is: "The smaller the room, the steeper the curve." I also remembered his System vs Program Compensation article, and am anxious to re-tune my curve after having reviewed both.

A few passages from the latter article bear repeating:

I simply LOVE watching the lights on my RTA dance to the incoming signal! But I've never used that function in an official capacity. What a great way to (temporarily?) quelch Audiophilia-Nervosa! Who of us hasn't sat in the sweet spot and been underwhelmed or dissatisfied with the sound? Who hasn't wondered whether a new player or processor would be the next big step toward audio nirvana? Well, having one of these puppies in the chain is key to washing away all pyschosomatic doubt!


You're just too practical and convincing, Wayne.
I was wondering how I'd download a multitude of curves to an AVR with no presets. Even so, I'll aim to zero-in on a satisfyingly homogenized system curve. By "homogenized," I mean sufficiently generalized such that most source material will sound good.
Get a MiniDSP DDRC=99A...then you can switch between tunes remotely via your remote control. You can store hundreds of calibrations if you want, but you would have to load from your collection to 1 slot before you could select remotely.

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Samsung 65" FP, Yamaha CX-A5100, Xilica XP4080, (4) Klipsch RP160MS, (4) JBL 8340As, (2) Yamaha P2500s amps, PS3, XBox One, (1) Asus mini pc, (2) Furman Power Conditioners, Darbee Darcet, and a Project RPM 1.5 Carbon turntable..
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post #49 of 110 Old 01-19-17, 11:55 AM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

An easy way to check your center for clarity is to take it outside (nice to have a piece of speaker wire long enough so you don't have to pull the stereo out as well) and away from boundaries & give it a listen. I'm always floored how good speakers sound outside compared to inside. This will tell you very quickly if the room is the problem. I've come to believe that diffusion is critical to good sound.
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post #50 of 110 Old 01-20-17, 11:13 AM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

Sorry if I sound like a killjoy, but my opinion is that it is easy to get caught up and lost in the "house curve follies" - so many to choose from, let me try them ALL!

It is a lot of work, and most (all?) of them will probably sound terrible to you.

My suggestion: start flat and modify from there. Keep a "flat" slot for comparison so you can A-B and compare. Be sure to listen at several different volume levels.

Another rule of thumb: The better (smoother & cleaner) the tweeters, the more highs you will enjoy, regardless of room size.

DO NOT use the target curve to try to increase bass beyond the natural rolloff at the low or high end.

But, (sigh!), if you must, you must.
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