Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed! - Page 6 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #51 of 110 Old 01-21-17, 10:08 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

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AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
Sorry if I sound like a killjoy, but my opinion is that it is easy to get caught up and lost in the "house curve follies" - so many to choose from, let me try them ALL!



It is a lot of work, and most (all?) of them will probably sound terrible to you.



My suggestion: start flat and modify from there. Keep a "flat" slot for comparison so you can A-B and compare. Be sure to listen at several different volume levels.
I value your opinion, but I think I miscommunicated. Maybe shouldn't have used the term "multitudes." I just wanted the ability to compare a few tweaks to my existing curve. I agree it's a good idea to start from flat rather than the automatically generated curve that room correction thinks you should have.



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DO NOT use the target curve to try to increase bass beyond the natural rolloff at the low or high end.



But, (sigh!), if you must, you must.
But I'd rather do it right AND understand why. Not sure if I miscommunicated again. My "shelf" rolls off at the low end with a sharp knee at around 18Hz. Is that bad?



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post #52 of 110 Old 01-21-17, 11:27 AM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

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...My "shelf" rolls off at the low end with a sharp knee at around 18Hz. Is that bad?
Not if the speakers' natural rolloff is at 18 Hz. IF the speakers roll off at 25 Hz and you are trying to get a little extra boost down to 18 Hz, you will probably get flabby low bass. I just spent a day figuring this out. The natural LF rolloff for most speakers is pretty steep and if you try to push that point down even just a few Hz, it can mean bass boost in the range of 6 dB or more to accomplish and the result gets harder to control and sounds icky (yes, that is an official audio term). You can use a DL target curve to cause the rolloff to match the speakers natural rolloff and get a cleaner sound.

At the HF end it can affect imaging. Use the target curve to have the system rolloff match the natural tweeter rolloff at the LP (the tweeter that rolls off first, if they do not match closely), and make sure the system rolloffs of the two channels DO match closely, and the imaging at HF will remain stable on sibilants, no smearing.

A few Hz difference at the low end (kHz at the high end) really tighten them up up nicely, each in its own way.
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post #53 of 110 Old 02-07-17, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

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ellisr63 wrote: View Post
My room is also on the verge of to dead... I would like to make some diffusion panels like GIK has for placing over my absorption panels. I wish they would offer kits of just the wood with the pattern cutout for DIYers too.
Last weekend was fun, as I had time to experiment with room treatment and correction. I'm unsure what or how to measure for degrees of liveness, but I feel I'm successfully headed in the right direction. It's not as hard to hear quiet speech, and it's not as muffled. Notice I didn't say "not muffled at all," because there's still room for improvement. What I thought was a deficiency in center channel quality turned out to be a combination of too much high-frequency absorption coupled with a less-than-complimentary house curve. I decided to go with more of a LE/DE scheme and tame some center-channel nasties (lower-mid boxiness and upper-midrange harshness). The 2nd reflection-point panels came down, and the diffusers in each front corner were replaced with absorbers. Extra pillows and blankets were removed. DIRAC Live's house curve for the center channel was set up flat, except for a bass "shelf" of +1dB with slight dips of -2dB centered at 500Hz and at 3kHz. Room correction effects were disabled above 10kHz in all channels.

Your idea of placing a diffuser over an absorber is an interesting one. I wonder if any of the sound would actually make it through the diffuser into the panel below. I suppose it would depend on which frequencies the diffuser deflected. Do you think the panels would need to be matched so as not to interfere with each other?

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bkeeler10 wrote: View Post
I certainly agree that the Revel center would be a better match for the Salons, and I would head that way too if I were you. But depending on the source of the problem, your intelligibility may not improve just by moving to the matching Revel center. That's all I'm sayin'
Good call! After a little work I was able to transform the center's tonal character. It's now much better, not just different. That'll learn me not to make changes without looking at multiple causes. Your phantom-center suggestion is still in the running, I just need to find more time to run the tests. The motivation will come when I'm acclimated to my new-found sound!

.
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post #54 of 110 Old 02-07-17, 10:33 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

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...IF the speakers roll off at 25 Hz and you are trying to get a little extra boost down to 18 Hz, you will probably get flabby low bass.
Can't get anything past you! That's exactly what I had, only I attributed it to the ported nature of the sub.

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I just spent a day figuring this out. The natural LF rolloff for most speakers is pretty steep and if you try to push that point down even just a few Hz, it can mean bass boost in the range of 6 dB or more to accomplish and the result gets harder to control and sounds icky (yes, that is an official audio term). You can use a DL target curve to cause the rolloff to match the speakers natural rolloff and get a cleaner sound.
Appreciate you sharing your findings! In trying to push the response down using the house curve, I think I was confusing room gain with natural rolloff. Embarrassingly enough, I didn't think things through. My reasoning neglected to account for boosting outside of the driver's capability. Sort of like trying to boost a null. It seems to me as if both eat up headroom, but boosting natural cutoff has a much more audible effect. Incidentally, DIRAC's suggested house curve matched the low-frequency rolloff very closely. This time I left it alone. I'm not sure why the sub was easier to integrate through the xover region. Could it have to do with distortion products (harmonics)? I mean, wouldn't a boosted driver generate harmonics related to the overdriven fundamental?

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At the HF end it can affect imaging. Use the target curve to have the system rolloff match the natural tweeter rolloff at the LP (the tweeter that rolls off first, if they do not match closely), and make sure the system rolloffs of the two channels DO match closely, and the imaging at HF will remain stable on sibilants, no smearing.
Arrrghhh! I missed this during my re-tune. I believe my L/R mains currently do not track in the upper region. Easy enough to remedy given your tips. Thanks again!

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post #55 of 110 Old 02-07-17, 11:00 AM
 
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

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Last weekend was fun, as I had time to experiment with room treatment and correction. I'm unsure what or how to measure for degrees of liveness, but I feel I'm successfully headed in the right direction. It's not as hard to hear quiet speech, and it's not as muffled. Notice I didn't say "not muffled at all," because there's still room for improvement. What I thought was a deficiency in center channel quality turned out to be a combination of too much high-frequency absorption coupled with a less-than-complimentary house curve. I decided to go with more of a LE/DE scheme and tame some center-channel nasties (lower-mid boxiness and upper-midrange harshness). The 2nd reflection-point panels came down, and the diffusers in each front corner were replaced with absorbers. Extra pillows and blankets were removed. DIRAC Live's house curve for the center channel was set up flat, except for a bass "shelf" of +1dB with slight dips of -2dB centered at 500Hz and at 3kHz. Room correction effects were disabled above 10kHz in all channels.

Your idea of placing a diffuser over an absorber is an interesting one. I wonder if any of the sound would actually make it through the diffuser into the panel below. I suppose it would depend on which frequencies the diffuser deflected. Do you think the panels would need to be matched so as not to interfere with each other?


Good call! After a little work I was able to transform the center's tonal character. It's now much better, not just different. That'll learn me not to make changes without looking at multiple causes. Your phantom-center suggestion is still in the running, I just need to find more time to run the tests. The motivation will come when I'm acclimated to my new-found sound!
From what i understand it is more of a decoration than a true diffuser, but by having a solid wood surface it should reduce absorption of the higher frequencies.

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post #56 of 110 Old 02-07-17, 11:11 AM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

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LE/DE scheme
You don't hear DE/LE or LE/DE terms used that much these days. I personally prefer DE/LE because it tends to keep you on guard against early reflections that are more disruptive to SS&I. The later LE reflections are usually late enough to add to spaciousness without being disruptive to SS&I.

Quote:
Your idea of placing a diffuser over an absorber is an interesting one. I wonder if any of the sound would actually make it through the diffuser into the panel below. I suppose it would depend on which frequencies the diffuser deflected. Do you think the panels would need to be matched so as not to interfere with each other?
Matching only in overall character, like ratio of open to closed space of diffuser. Think in terms of wavelength. At 1 kHz, wavelength is about 1 foot. A 1-inch diameter hole is invisible to frequencies below 10 kHz or so (a very rough approximation, but gives you a ballpark idea). But a diffusor with 50% open area is another matter, quite open at LF and not much at HF.
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post #57 of 110 Old 02-15-17, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

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You don't hear DE/LE or LE/DE terms used that much these days. I personally prefer DE/LE because it tends to keep you on guard against early reflections that are more disruptive to SS&I. The later LE reflections are usually late enough to add to spaciousness without being disruptive to SS&I.
Sometimes I forget to check the date of the articles I read. Many of the concepts are as timeless as the laws of physics, but others catch me off guard. Looks like I misused the term and meant to write DE/LE because:
  • The back wall (listening end) is fairly dead (two 20" traps and one panel behind LP; one panel at each 1st reflection point).
  • The front wall (speaker end) is supposed to be live (despite having activated the mains' rear tweeters and despite the TV's large reflective display).

It's easy to identify my acoustic treatments' contribution by listening to how my voice changes when I first walk into the LP end, and then how it keeps changing as I move through it to the speaker end. The acoustics still clearly need improvement. Removing the 2nd reflection panels did not entirely solve the issue with muffled sound at the LP. I think there's still too much hi-frequency absorption as provided by the dual-action traps; so if I remove them to liven the sound at the high end, then SQ will suffer at the low end. WIN-LOSE. Improvement may be possible but like anything else worthwhile, takes effort and time. I'm tempted to swap the dual-acting traps for more conventional bass-only types, but it's not in the budget right now. So what are we left to work with? Assuming the speakers have already been positioned as best as possible for SS&I considerations, here are the variables:
  • Rear tweets on/off
  • Bass trap #x of y in location z
  • Bass trap diffuser section aimed in 45deg increments

That's a lot of combinations and experimentation! Listener fatigue is bound to set in. Wouldn't you question the validity of a listening comparison separated by hours if not days? Well, that's exactly what will happen when trying to setup each and every combination listed. Time (and sanity) might be preserved by performing only the most promising trials. For instance, changes could be made in L/R pairs if the room is acoustically symmetrical - there would be no need to control left and right tweeters individually. If we recognize the orientation of diffuser sections to be the major contributor of muffled sound, then we can concentrate on which setup to perform first. Is this the order in which you'd approach a room-tune:
  1. SS&I
  2. Acoustic treatment for reflections
  3. Acoustic treatment for bass
  4. Room correction

.
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post #58 of 110 Old 02-15-17, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

More thoughts (sorry, I can't help it!):

Room correction could be trying to undo my well-intentioned acoustic tuning. Dirac Live yields room calibrations rich in SS&I, so if my speakers are correctly set up, less acoustic treatment should be needed, right?

I believe it's time to get back to basics, take some measurements without the traps, then introduce them individually and measure again. Then guess what? Move them around and measure some more! The vibrating trap method can help a lot here.

Or... My basic complaint of muffled sound could just be high-frequency hearing loss!




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post #59 of 110 Old 02-15-17, 07:22 PM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

I would tend to think your first two presumptions to be correct. One must always begin with a zero sum game in that the room should be an empty vessel into which sound should be introduced in its raw format first. Change can them be made to the room a tiny bit at a time to obtain the results you are looking for. We who are not professionals tend to add things to a room without having full knowledge of whether those things are good or bad. You have a good bit of sound attenuation in your room that apparently might be causing your time of discontent. Us regular guys then might expect a bit of coding to do or undue something that might be beyond its control. I think, and it is just that, Jack-think, that when you empty the room of equipment, maybe empty the room of traps and what have you and treat the room like a newborn, en empty vessel that needs to be eased into conformity.

Just random thoughts to be taken or not taken irrespective of your hearing acuity
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post #60 of 110 Old 02-15-17, 09:06 PM
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Re: Eeek... Wife Moving at Light Speed!

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More thoughts (sorry, I can't help it!):

Room correction could be trying to undo my well-intentioned acoustic tuning. Dirac Live yields room calibrations rich in SS&I, so if my speakers are correctly set up, less acoustic treatment should be needed, right?

I believe it's time to get back to basics, take some measurements without the traps, then introduce them individually and measure again. Then guess what? Move them around and measure some more! The vibrating trap method can help a lot here.

Or... My basic complaint of muffled sound could just be high-frequency hearing loss!




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Hmm. I wonder too. My thinking is if you've selected and placed your acoustic bolsters, Dirac should have less to do. Kinda like tuning your subs with minidsp before you run audyssey therefore lightening its processing workload. And yes, I also believe if you've placed your speakers correctly (?), Dirac will have less to do there as well. Am I all wet? What I mean to say is taking care of the physical aspects first, like placement and treatment, should be done before relying on electronics. Like subs. Placement first, treatment second, and EQ last. Whatchathinkaboutdat?
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