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post #91 of 250 Old 03-18-15, 09:09 AM
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Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

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tonyvdb wrote: View Post
I think another thing that this session proves is that you do need more than just 30 - 50 watts of power to drive good speakers at comfortable listening levels. This also means that many low end receivers that drop to below 50watts per channel under load would fail at giving good levels of undistorted sound.
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ellisr63 wrote: View Post
It depends on the speaker efficiency, and how loud you want it.
I once owned pair of KEF 105/3 speakers that were very efficient and played crazy-loud as advertised, but didn't really seem to "sing" until a certain power threshold was passed. I've also read about other speakers "behaving" the same way, but have no first-hand experience. Do you believe such a phenomenon exists that requires higher amplifier power for speakers that don't play well quietly?

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lcaillo wrote: View Post
The percent correct can only be said to be statistically significant when the acceptable level of error is decided and the number of trials is considered. 80% on 28 trials is very different from 80% on 7 trials.
This sub-thread really interests me. I loved taking statistics courses, but can't remember much now as a senior citizen. Thanks for bringing back the memories!

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AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
Part of what prompted this exercise was a wandering acoustic guitar on a Nickel Creek track We turned to placement of absorptive panels to control reflections, then to manipulating where the reflections fell, then on to other fine points. A report will follow.
Fascinating stuff, and I'm truly on the edge of my seat to read your findings. I've been struggling a long time on my 2ch system with one of my test tracks ("Hotel California" from the Eagles Hell Freezes Over album). The opening acoustic guitar from the right channel presents a couple of problems:
  1. The guitar body (all the notes) seems to stretch toward the left and back again
  2. The guitar body (individual notes) seems to split in two and notes become "tangled"
Problem-1 changes with toe-in and distance to side wall. Problem-2 happens during the fast part of the solo. It gets better when acoustically treating the side wall, but never really goes away. I think comb filtering may be the culprit. It's time for some REW and miniDSP to the rescue! I think I'm ready to toss an old audiophile reservation aside and take the plunge into adding an A/D-D/A conversion.

Incidentally, early crowd noise nicely reveals the recording venue by relaying height and depth when my speakers and room treatment are properly dialed-in!

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chashint wrote: View Post
Another belief to ponder is in regards to magic power cords or specially designed speaker wires and interconnects.
If amplifiers are so similar they cannot be distinguished from one another, how can a wire change the sound enough to be distinguishable from any other wire?
Just pondering the mysteries of the universe this morning.
Enjoy your coffee.
Letting go of some audiophile beliefs can be hard depending on how deeply ingrained they are. But it is possible if the individual is open minded and susceptible to suggestion. And we all know who we are, don't we? ...ponder, ponder... sip, sip

This is a true dog-ate-my-homework story where Sebastian (my border collie mix) chewed through the left channel interconnect running from my preamp to power amp. Granted I didn't do any official testing or level-matching, but I feel my musical enjoyment didn't suffer after substituting a much cheaper set I had laying around. Hmmm... how much $$$ have I wasted in my brainwashed youth???
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post #92 of 250 Old 03-18-15, 09:27 AM
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Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

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BlueRockinLou wrote: View Post
I once owned pair of KEF 105/3 speakers that were very efficient and played crazy-loud as advertised, but didn't really seem to "sing" until a certain power threshold was passed. I've also read about other speakers "behaving" the same way, but have no first-hand experience. Do you believe such a phenomenon exists that requires higher amplifier power for speakers that don't play well quietly?
I know there was a test done a couple years ago here where they took a normal efficiency speaker and played several different instruments through it one at a time. Here is what was said, "the most dynamic power draw was during the Thwack of a snare drum dead centre" used 250 watts into speakers that were 89 db efficient. Clearly this would tax an amplifier if it was not able to keep up.

Home theater:
Onkyo 805, Yamaha YDP2006EQ, Samson Servo 600 amp
3 EV Sentry 500 monitors across the front, 4 Mission 762i's Surrounds, SVS PB13U sub, Panasonic BDT220, Harmony 1100, Nintendo WiiU
Panasonic PT-AE8000 on a 120" 2,35:1 fixed screen

Living room system:
Sherwood/Newcastle R972, Mission 765's, SVS SBS02's, A/D/S MS3u sub, Yamaha YDG2030EQ
Yamaha KX-393 Tape deck, CDC 805 CD changer, Panasonic BD60, Sony turntable PS-T20
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post #93 of 250 Old 03-18-15, 09:45 AM
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Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

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tonyvdb wrote: View Post
I know there was a test done a couple years ago here where they took a normal efficiency speaker and played several different instruments through it one at a time. Here is what was said, "the most dynamic power draw was during the Thwack of a snare drum dead centre" used 250 watts into speakers that were 89 db efficient. Clearly this would tax an amplifier if it was not able to keep up.
Wonder what the wattage draw is during the FURY tank scenes. my ultras are 88db so something tells me I need MO powa

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post #94 of 250 Old 03-18-15, 10:55 AM
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Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

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BlueRockinLou wrote: View Post
I once owned pair of KEF 105/3 speakers that were very efficient and played crazy-loud as advertised, but didn't really seem to "sing" until a certain power threshold was passed. I've also read about other speakers "behaving" the same way, but have no first-hand experience. Do you believe such a phenomenon exists that requires higher amplifier power for speakers that don't play well quietly?
As a trombone player I have heard this a lot, "sing", in the case of a trombone it is getting to a SPL level which causes the bell to ring. Different materials and thicknesses in the trombone will change how much or little a trombone will project and sing. The other factor is the venue and how much people are in the room. I have to play very differently it dress rehearsal vs a concert on a solo just because of the warm bodies in the room.

I wonder if a dead room needs more SPL to get that "sing" and if the room has too much energy it can cause your brain to go into overdrive.

Long story short, I would look at the room first before the speakers/Amp.
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post #95 of 250 Old 03-18-15, 11:10 AM
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Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

Quote:
BlueRockinLou wrote: View Post
I once owned pair of KEF 105/3 speakers that were very efficient and played crazy-loud as advertised, but didn't really seem to "sing" until a certain power threshold was passed. I've also read about other speakers "behaving" the same way, but have no first-hand experience. Do you believe such a phenomenon exists that requires higher amplifier power for speakers that don't play well quietly?
Absolutely, my B&W's did not sound good at quiet volumes, but with some power and some turnin up, they were great.

Good Listening

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post #96 of 250 Old 03-18-15, 11:36 AM
 
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Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

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BlueRockinLou wrote: View Post
I once owned pair of KEF 105/3 speakers that were very efficient and played crazy-loud as advertised, but didn't really seem to "sing" until a certain power threshold was passed.
Try the same thing with speakers that are 10-20db more efficient than the KEFs, and you will see why I say big amps are not always needed.

My Home Living room Theater
Samsung 65" FP, Yamaha CX-A5100, Xilica XP4080, (5) JBL 8340As, PS3, XBox One, (1) Asus mini pc, (2) Furman Power Conditioners, Darbee Darcet, Oppo UDP-203, and a Project RPM 1.5 Carbon turntable..
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post #97 of 250 Old 03-18-15, 11:38 AM
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Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

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Blacklightning wrote: View Post
As a trombone player I have heard this a lot, "sing", in the case of a trombone it is getting to a SPL level which causes the bell to ring. Different materials and thicknesses in the trombone will change how much or little a trombone will project and sing. The other factor is the venue and how much people are in the room. I have to play very differently it dress rehearsal vs a concert on a solo just because of the warm bodies in the room.

I wonder if a dead room needs more SPL to get that "sing" and if the room has too much energy it can cause your brain to go into overdrive.

Long story short, I would look at the room first before the speakers/Amp.
Now THAT is eye-opening! We can get so caught up in the audio gear and music media end of things that we forget the SOURCE. Musicians have a unique perspective that should command more attention. Thanks for sharing!

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Absolutely, my B&W's did not sound good at quiet volumes, but with some power and some turnin up, they were great.
HAH! There's strength in numbers. So far we have ...errr... two.
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post #98 of 250 Old 03-18-15, 11:39 AM
 
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Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

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Savjac wrote: View Post
Absolutely, my B&W's did not sound good at quiet volumes, but with some power and some turnin up, they were great.
I agree that there is a certain level that sounds best. but I think it is partly determined by how it is mixed.

My Home Living room Theater
Samsung 65" FP, Yamaha CX-A5100, Xilica XP4080, (5) JBL 8340As, PS3, XBox One, (1) Asus mini pc, (2) Furman Power Conditioners, Darbee Darcet, Oppo UDP-203, and a Project RPM 1.5 Carbon turntable..
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post #99 of 250 Old 03-18-15, 12:06 PM
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Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

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ellisr63 wrote: View Post
Try the same thing with speakers that are 10-20db more efficient than the KEFs, and you will see why I say big amps are not always needed.
My EVs are 96db efficient and at reference levels I am still running at at least half the amps output level as shown on the amps vu meters.

Home theater:
Onkyo 805, Yamaha YDP2006EQ, Samson Servo 600 amp
3 EV Sentry 500 monitors across the front, 4 Mission 762i's Surrounds, SVS PB13U sub, Panasonic BDT220, Harmony 1100, Nintendo WiiU
Panasonic PT-AE8000 on a 120" 2,35:1 fixed screen

Living room system:
Sherwood/Newcastle R972, Mission 765's, SVS SBS02's, A/D/S MS3u sub, Yamaha YDG2030EQ
Yamaha KX-393 Tape deck, CDC 805 CD changer, Panasonic BD60, Sony turntable PS-T20
Panasonic TC-P50ST60, HD-PVR & WDTV Live, Harmony 900

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post #100 of 250 Old 03-18-15, 12:19 PM
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Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

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ellisr63 wrote: View Post
I agree that there is a certain level that sounds best. but I think it is partly determined by how it is mixed.
That makes three
HAH! Majority rules.
We are right and you are wrong (j/k)

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lcaillo wrote: View Post
I think it is curious that even though we felt that we could hear differences in some comparisons, everyone came away convinced that the differences were so small, if real, that we would all opt for the cheapest amp that had the power we need.

I will be publishing the comments on individual amp impressions in the context of the comparisons made soon.
Cheapest amp to meet needs? In terms of performance and budget, yes. For aesthetics and pride-in-ownership, maybe not so much. There's something about those trademark McIntosh analog meters that turns many a mere mortal into Pavlov's dog ...drool... but I'll never be able to afford one. Do pride in ownership or pretty lights improve the sound? No, but they may emotionally influence a listener into thinking they hear an improvement.

Can't praise you guys enough for your organization and wisdom. No doubt you take as much pride in your reports as your experiment. Eagerly but patiently awaiting
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