Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread - Page 5 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #41 of 250 Old 03-16-15, 09:56 AM
HTS Reviewer
 
Peter Loeser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,760
Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

Seems there is a decent amount of evidence to support the theory that differences between amps can be heard. The evidence also suggests that there are select few who can detect the differences by ear, and under very specific conditions. Which means... the debate will continue!

Seriously though, many thanks to this crew for putting so much thought and effort into the process. It has been very entertaining and informative so far. I'm looking forward to seeing the detailed results.

Edit: I will add that I pretty much agree with Sonnie. Although I think I have been able to sense subtle differences between amps, I have no proof that I could do it consistently. Spend what you need to get enough power to avoid clipping and you should be good to go.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Peter Loeser is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #42 of 250 Old 03-16-15, 10:06 AM
Elite Shackster
 
Lumen's Avatar
Lou
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,261
My System
Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

Quote:
AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
A question for your consideration:

When you have a typical get-together of family &/or friends over and you sit down together to enjoy a movie or some music on your system, how many of them typically care about and can appreciate really good sound quality?
What can I add that hasn't already been said?
  • Family/visitors impressed with picture and/or sound... CHECK!
  • Family/visitors unwilling to invest in quality components... CHECK!
  • Family/visitors put off by system complexity and calibration... CHECK!

But how about:
  • Visitors/family who don't watch/listen as if in movie ther or music hall?
  • Visitors/family who like to watch movies in daylight or lights on?

In other words, some people don't treat the performance as a primary activity. They repeatedly get up and move around, make annoying noises, narrate, etc., etc, etc. I suppose that's okay with certain types of performances like sports, but it can drive you up the wall if you're the type that likes to suspend disbelief and immerse yourself in the presentation.

To relate this back to the amplifier comparison, the participants recognized the difference between background/distracted listening and focused evaluation. And oh, how those distractions satisfied! Yummy food, and pleasantly rewarding company!
Lumen is offline  
post #43 of 250 Old 03-16-15, 10:14 AM
Elite Shackster
 
Talley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Houston Tx
Posts: 1,295
Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

Quote:
Sonnie wrote: View Post
Keep in mind that we really needed more time to repeat the testing and see that identifying an amp can be repeated consistently among the same two amps over and over. This is one testing method we did not have time for. Not trying to discredit the ears of Dennis, but there was a chance that any one of these guys could have gone 7 of 7... or 0 of 7. We were more or less just having fun with this round and learning more about ABX testing.

We could have had more expensive speakers... more expensive cables... and a power plant in the back yard to help improve in the possibility of hearing differences... but we didn't. We can speculate all day long, but we had what we had and we did what we did... and as Leonard noted, not to please anyone here, but to have fun. We are sharing our results because we can and because we know there are some interested in seeing the results, but we could really care less for those who want to poke holes in it for whatever reasons.

What I ultimately took away from this was that if I feel I need an amp to power my speakers outside of a receiver, which I do because I have clipped my AVR amp on my speakers, then I need to find the least expensive amp I can find with the minimum power I need... and call it a day. I personally see absolutely zero reason to spend a lot of money on an amp. That is no way implies the same will be true for you... I simply proved for myself what options are best for my ears.
Well one of the main reasons why I was curious of this testing was this very fact... While I am leaning more toward the fact that amps make little audible difference when properly levele matched I do feel after reading and NOW agree that the biggest differences in amps that are audible are when they are driven loud are are driving into distortion.

I've read that and based on the results of these tests and some other publications I really do feel like amps make a minimal amount of differences IF driven into non distorted levels. This is solid state vs. solid state of course.. I do think tube amps sound different.

One of the only reasons I have a separate is the fact I got it for a decent price and that was that. After checking the actual test data my Krell can drive all channels into 108 watts at 8 ohms at .1% distortion and 136w at 1%... this is the actual test data of driving ALL channels at the same time.

Even checking current AVRs it takes a 2,000+ dollar AVR (typically) to be able to produce the same specs. My X4000 driving 5-6 channels only produces some 68 watts at 1% which basically means I can play louder and cleaner. than my AVR alone. I spent 2450 total on my AVR and amp which yes that could of bought me a high end AVR....

only issue is a high end AVR would be 1/4 the price in three years where my Krell value will hold true since it's market keeps the pricing current.

Now... something like the Outlaw 5 channel amp would be on my radar to test.... considering it's rated 200w each channel at .1% which gives me some 90w more headroom. Would love to hear that when playing loud and seeing if there are any audible differences.

Master Electrician

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

XPA-7 & Krell Showcase 7 | XMC-1 | SVS Ultra Tower system | HSU VTF-15H MK2 | BenQ W1070 | Jamestown 135"
Talley is offline  
 
post #44 of 250 Old 03-16-15, 10:18 AM
Elite Shackster
 
Talley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Houston Tx
Posts: 1,295
Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

Quote:
Peter Loeser wrote: View Post
Spend what you need to get enough power to avoid clipping and you should be good to go.
THIS!!!

I think this pretty much sums it up. Sonnie said himself he has clipped the amp. Me... I've ran these SVS ultras to 105db playing pink floyd with the X4000 in direct mode and the volume set to +8db and never heard of any strain at all.

Do I hear my room... ya it sounds like . But the speakers played loud and strong. Very happy.

Now... I will never play that loud again... the was LOUD wow. Toooooo loud. If I can play 90db with bass peaks around 98-100 then thats still plenty loud that I will ever need to go.

So for me, the price... me having seperates gives me plenty of headroom which should be everyones goal. More headroom = less distortion. and distortion is audible.

Master Electrician

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

XPA-7 & Krell Showcase 7 | XMC-1 | SVS Ultra Tower system | HSU VTF-15H MK2 | BenQ W1070 | Jamestown 135"
Talley is offline  
post #45 of 250 Old 03-16-15, 10:18 AM
Elite Shackster
 
tonyvdb's Avatar
Tony
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Can
Posts: 15,054
My System
Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

Quote:
Peter Loeser wrote: View Post
Seems there is a decent amount of evidence to support the theory that differences between amps can be heard. The evidence also suggests that there are select few who can detect the differences by ear, and under very specific conditions.
LOL yup this debate will never die

I do think it does show though that the differences are subtle at best. In normal listening conditions it probably would be even less noticeable.

Thanks for taking the time to do this guys

Home theater:
Onkyo 805, Yamaha YDP2006EQ, Samson Servo 600 amp
3 EV Sentry 500 monitors across the front, 4 Mission 762i's Surrounds, SVS PB13U sub, Panasonic BDT220, Harmony 1100, Nintendo WiiU
Panasonic PT-AE8000 on a 120" 2,35:1 fixed screen

Living room system:
Sherwood/Newcastle R972, Mission 765's, SVS SBS02's, A/D/S MS3u sub, Yamaha YDG2030EQ
Yamaha KX-393 Tape deck, CDC 805 CD changer, Panasonic BD60, Sony turntable PS-T20
Panasonic TC-P50ST60, HD-PVR & WDTV Live, Harmony 900

tonyvdb is offline  
post #46 of 250 Old 03-16-15, 10:21 AM
Elite Shackster
 
Lumen's Avatar
Lou
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 2,261
My System
Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

Not arguing that one or the views is absolute and carved in stone. But I thought the following quote from Lonnie Vaughn, Chief Technical Officer at EMOTIVA, offers a decidedly non snake-oil explanation for why amps sound different:

"Amplifiers do sound different for a number of reasons. Paul cites a good one, the square wave response. On a personal note, I believe the power supply plays a big part in the way an amp sounds. I get that the power supply accounts for the biggest part of an amplifiers cost. But so many companies take it down to the bare minimum required to meet the specs that there is no headroom in the system at all and the amp itself just sounds flat as a board. In these cases, all the designer had to do was put in a few dollars more in storage and it would have made it a completely different unit." (Taken from an article on this webpage)
Lumen is offline  
post #47 of 250 Old 03-16-15, 10:42 AM
Elite Shackster
 
JBrax's Avatar
Jeff
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 4,363
My System
It's very interesting reading results/impressions of this testing and as others have said thanks for doing it. I've often wondered if adding a dedicated amp to my setup would provide any audible improvement. To be honest with my speakers I highly doubt it but with harder to drive speakers I think it would. If I were to add an amp it certainly wouldn't be a boutique name brand but something along the lines of Emotiva's price range. Oh those pretty blue lights are oh so tempting!
JBrax is offline  
post #48 of 250 Old 03-16-15, 11:05 AM
Elite Shackster
 
Talley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Houston Tx
Posts: 1,295
Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

Quote:
BlueRockinLou wrote: View Post
Not arguing that one or the views is absolute and carved in stone. But I thought the following quote from Lonnie Vaughn, Chief Technical Officer at EMOTIVA, offers a decidedly non snake-oil explanation for why amps sound different:

"Amplifiers do sound different for a number of reasons. Paul cites a good one, the square wave response. On a personal note, I believe the power supply plays a big part in the way an amp sounds. I get that the power supply accounts for the biggest part of an amplifiers cost. But so many companies take it down to the bare minimum required to meet the specs that there is no headroom in the system at all and the amp itself just sounds flat as a board. In these cases, all the designer had to do was put in a few dollars more in storage and it would have made it a completely different unit." (Taken from an article on this webpage)

Which is why all the higher end amps that have higher end costs have the big toroidal style transformers. My krell has a 1600w toroidal supply. cheaper units use standard transformer winding types. Or at least it's one of the differences I notice. does that make an audible difference... well who knows. The Denon tested has a normal non toriodal type transformer and that ended up falling last by the posts that was made?.... is that still true?

Master Electrician

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

XPA-7 & Krell Showcase 7 | XMC-1 | SVS Ultra Tower system | HSU VTF-15H MK2 | BenQ W1070 | Jamestown 135"
Talley is offline  
post #49 of 250 Old 03-16-15, 11:14 AM
Elite Shackster
 
tonyvdb's Avatar
Tony
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Can
Posts: 15,054
My System
Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

Quote:
Talley wrote: View Post
Which is why all the higher end amps that have higher end costs have the big toroidal style transformers. My krell has a 1600w toroidal supply. cheaper units use standard transformer winding types. Or at least it's one of the differences I notice. does that make an audible difference... well who knows. The Denon tested has a normal non toriodal type transformer and that ended up falling last by the posts that was made?.... is that still true?
And thats where your not necessarily right. I have two different Samson amps both have nice sized toroidal transformers in each and neither of them cost me more then $350 new.
Onkyo has also used toroidal transformers in there high end receivers as well for years.

Home theater:
Onkyo 805, Yamaha YDP2006EQ, Samson Servo 600 amp
3 EV Sentry 500 monitors across the front, 4 Mission 762i's Surrounds, SVS PB13U sub, Panasonic BDT220, Harmony 1100, Nintendo WiiU
Panasonic PT-AE8000 on a 120" 2,35:1 fixed screen

Living room system:
Sherwood/Newcastle R972, Mission 765's, SVS SBS02's, A/D/S MS3u sub, Yamaha YDG2030EQ
Yamaha KX-393 Tape deck, CDC 805 CD changer, Panasonic BD60, Sony turntable PS-T20
Panasonic TC-P50ST60, HD-PVR & WDTV Live, Harmony 900


Last edited by tonyvdb; 03-16-15 at 05:17 PM.
tonyvdb is offline  
post #50 of 250 Old 03-16-15, 11:24 AM
Elite Shackster
 
Talley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Houston Tx
Posts: 1,295
Re: Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

Quote:
tonyvdb wrote: View Post
And thats where you are wrong. I have two different Samson amps both have nice sized toroidal transformers in each and neither of them cost me more then $350 new.
Onkyo has also used toroidal transformers in there high end receivers as well for years.
I'm not wrong.... I know that they are found in the lower equipment but what I was saying is they are always found in the higher end stuff and are used as advertisement purposes. I know it shouldn't be, you can get a 2000w piltron toridal supply for 300 bucks and thats usually in the 2,000-5,000+ dollar amps.

and yes you get into the 900 dollar + onkyos and they have em. my comment was cheaper unit = sub 900 bucks and lower they don't TYPICALLY have them. maybe some of the emotivas do and thats where they stand out as price/value.

the Denon X5200 does not have one.

Master Electrician

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

XPA-7 & Krell Showcase 7 | XMC-1 | SVS Ultra Tower system | HSU VTF-15H MK2 | BenQ W1070 | Jamestown 135"
Talley is offline  
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
2015 , amplifier , discussion , evaluation , event , highend , home , reporting , shack , theater , thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now




PLEASE COMPLETE ALL REQUIRED FIELDS BELOW... THANKS!

REQUIRED FIELDS ON THIS PAGE
YOU MUST COMPLETE ALL OF THESE

Username
Password
Confirm Password
Email Address
Confirm Email Address
Random Question
Random Question #2




User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
PLEASE READ BELOW PRIOR TO ENTERING AN EMAIL ADDRESS!

ATTENTION!

YOU MUST ACTIVATE YOUR ACCOUNT!

Activation requires you reply to an email we will send you after you register... if you do not reply to this email, you will not be able to view certain areas of the forum or certain images... nor will you be able download software.

AN INVALID EMAIL ADDRESS WILL CAUSE YOUR ACCOUNT TO BE DELETED!

See our banned email list here: Banned Email List

We DO NOT respond to spamcop, boxtrapper and spamblocker emails... please add @hometheatershack DOT com to your whitelist prior to registering or you will get nowhere on your registration.


Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML is not allowed!
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 


For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome