Denon AVR-3806: Audessey & other confusion... - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 10 Old 05-24-06, 04:03 PM Thread Starter
Senior Shackster
Russell
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 142
Denon AVR-3806: Audessey & other confusion...

I have the above receiver. It's a technical tour de force at it's price, but I and a few others find it preplexing. Denon UK have turned out to be as much help as a chocolate fireguard and mostly knowledgable on precisely what's not their problem. A few of us on the UKs biggest forum have experimented, shared our experiences and are none the wiser in some ways and disagree on others.

I was hoping that you, our colonial cousins, who number most on here, might have some experiences or even solutions you wish to share. I know this will only apply to 3806 owners and so may appeal to very few, but I'm going to float it anyhoo.

Audessey

The most trumpeted feature of the 3806 was the first appearance of Audessey MultEQ XT (hereafter, Audessey) on an amp at this price. Some are happy as Larry with the room EQ that can cover a range of listening positions. It can take the heat out of a bright sounding environment and, within limits tame resonances and fill in cancellations. Speaker distances seem to be broadly accurate and seem to adjust for delays and phase shifts within speaker crossovers. All this leads, in my opinion to broad surround sound stages, smooth panning of effects with even tonality all round. All as promised. Very nice.

But I don't like it. I am in a minority. To my ears everything and I mean everything, sounds like it has had Phil Spector apply his "Wall of Sound". Nothing seems to breath, speech and vocals sound veiled and indistinct and for me this outways all the other benefits of Audessey. I daren't even bother trying it with music again - it's that bad. I got into hi-fi precisely to get away from compressed messey sounds like this.

I have experimented with the positions and mounting of the microphone, trying the positions people actually sit in and more equidistantly spaced patterns. Everytime something is moved or changed I re-EQ in the vain hope that sooner or later something will click, but no joy so far. I concluded that an extra layer of processing can cure many things, but less is more when it comes to absolute clarity. It's the main reason I've bought a BFD - I'll be able to tame the problem frequencies without sacrificing clarity.

Any thoughts?

Stereo/Direct/Pure Direct

Technical issue this one, so if you haven't got a 3806 don't speculate.

I have my speakers all set to small and crossover at 80Hz. I do not have LFE+Mains set anywhere in any of the extensive menus.

So, how come, when playing CD, either via Denon Link 3, or straight anologue phono cables into the CD input (which I prefer), I get no output to the sub in stereo, but plenty of Sub in the Direct/Pure Direct modes? I would have thought that D/PD would pass the vanilla stereo signal straight through with no bass management. After all, that's what I just asked it to do when I press Pure Direct. Stereo gives no sub output, Dolby Prologic II does. Huh?

Any Thoughts?

Russell
russ.will is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 10 Old 05-24-06, 06:11 PM
Elite Shackster
 
Sonnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama)
Posts: 22,577
My System
Re: Denon AVR-3806: Audessey & other confusion...

You got me on the second one, as I've not even tried the Denon Link or CD input, nor the Stereo mode... but I'll comment on the Audyssey.

I guess my ears just weren't made for critical listening because I really can't tell a difference one way or another. I'm guessing/assuming it's right. It sounds okay I suppose. I've never had anyone else listen to it that is a critical listener to tell me what they think.

This is my vision for it though. I ain't studying the multi listening position eq'ing. Seems like it's logical that somebody is gonna sacrifice something somewhere... I don't know, maybe it makes it at least better in several positions, but I just don't care about those others as much as I do the primary seating position. 90% of the time it's only me in there anyway. What I plan on doing (if this is possible and I think it is)... is to measure the response of each of my speakers via my own calibrated microphone and REW (Room EQ Wizard). Then I'll manual adjust what frequencies I can via the eq. Maybe I can get the response somewhat better for each speaker for the main listening position.

I"m not so sure how accurate that mic can be either. Maybe from 40-50hz up to about 10khz it's close... outside of that I have my doubts. But that does cover the bulk of the listening response and I have the BFD for the sub frequencies anyway.

Wish I could be more help with better ears, but I just ain't got it up top.
Sonnie is offline  
post #3 of 10 Old 05-24-06, 09:08 PM
HTS Senior Moderator
 
nova's Avatar
Mark
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 5,423
My System
Re: Denon AVR-3806: Audessey & other confusion...

Well,... I dunno how much help I'll be. I will throw in my two sense

1st I have a 3805 so no Audessey but, I do find the same problems with the older "Room EQ" function,.... I don't use it.

2nd,...Depends on how you have it set up. Your 3806 should remember the settings you have selected for Pure Direct, Direct, Stereo, Standard, 5 Ch.

eg: I have my
Pure Direct set to L +9, R +8.5, SW OFF (for full range 2 ch.)
Stereo set to L +9, R +8.5, SW -3 (for 2.1 w/ mains xover'd at 60)
Standard set to L +9, C +3.5, R +8.5, SR +5.5, SL +3, SW -5

Perhaps you have your Direct and Pure Direct SW setting at +5 (or something) and your Stereo SW setting OFF?

Mark
nova is offline  
 
post #4 of 10 Old 05-25-06, 05:21 PM Thread Starter
Senior Shackster
Russell
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 142
Re: Denon AVR-3806: Audessey & other confusion...

Thanks Mark,

are you saying that if I select Pure Direct and then dive into the menus that the changes I make will only affect Pure Direct? ie, if I were then to select Stereo and then make changes within the menus these changes will be for stereo only? By pressing Pure Direct, I would then be reverting to the settings last selected when in Pure Direct?

I was under the impression that any changes within the menus were global. If you're right. I would love to find out that I am wrong.

Russell
russ.will is offline  
post #5 of 10 Old 05-25-06, 06:40 PM
HTS Senior Moderator
 
Wayne A. Pflughaupt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Corpus Christi, Texas
Posts: 9,177
Send a message via Yahoo to Wayne A. Pflughaupt
Re: Denon AVR-3806: Audessey & other confusion...

Quote:
Denon UK have turned out to be as much help as a chocolate fireguard and mostly knowledgable on precisely what's not their problem.
Hmm, not much different than Denon USA, then...

Quote:
Some are happy as Larry with the room EQ that can cover a range of listening positions.
That “range of listening positions” thing might be the problem. I’m with Sonnie, if you’re going to EQ, EQ for a primary listening position. It will usually sound acceptable for most other positions, too. I just can’t see how the EQ “averaging” thing can get you anything but inaccuracy at all positions. I mean, assuming you need EQ, you get inaccuracy for “free” with no EQ at all, don’t you? Why trade one inaccurate response curve for another? At least EQing for a primary position gets it right in one place.

Regards,
Wayne
Wayne A. Pflughaupt is offline  
post #6 of 10 Old 05-25-06, 06:57 PM
HTS Senior Moderator
 
nova's Avatar
Mark
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Northern Utah
Posts: 5,423
My System
Re: Denon AVR-3806: Audessey & other confusion...

Quote:
russ.will wrote:
are you saying that if I select Pure Direct and then dive into the menus that the changes I make will only affect Pure
Well, yes, kinda. Remember I have the 3805, but I would bet they are the same.

As I recall most of the menu stuff is universal, but lets say you select Pure Direct, then hit the "ch sel ENTER" button this will display eg; "FRONT Lch VOL. +9.0db" press it again and it will move to "FRONT Rch VOL. +9.0db" etc. etc. So if you change these levels while in Pure Direct it will only affect the Pure Direct Mode. You can have different channel levels for each mode (the receiver will remember) and/or turn the sub on or off for each mode (by running the level all the way down, then it will eventually go to OFF).

I probably did not explain that very well, but give it a try, I'm sure you'll figure out what I mean pretty easily.

Mark
nova is offline  
post #7 of 10 Old 05-26-06, 04:16 AM Thread Starter
Senior Shackster
Russell
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 142
Re: Denon AVR-3806: Audessey & other confusion...

Quote:
nova wrote:
Well, yes, kinda. Remember I have the 3805, but I would bet they are the same.

As I recall most of the menu stuff is universal, but lets say you select Pure Direct, then hit the "ch sel ENTER" button this will display eg; "FRONT Lch VOL. +9.0db" press it again and it will move to "FRONT Rch VOL. +9.0db" etc. etc. So if you change these levels while in Pure Direct it will only affect the Pure Direct Mode. You can have different channel levels for each mode (the receiver will remember) and/or turn the sub on or off for each mode (by running the level all the way down, then it will eventually go to OFF).

I probably did not explain that very well, but give it a try, I'm sure you'll figure out what I mean pretty easily.
Many thanks, I'll try this at the weekend.

Russell
russ.will is offline  
post #8 of 10 Old 05-26-06, 04:57 PM Thread Starter
Senior Shackster
Russell
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 142
Re: Denon AVR-3806: Audessey & other confusion...

Quote:
Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote:
That “range of listening positions” thing might be the problem. I’m with Sonnie, if you’re going to EQ, EQ for a primary listening position. It will usually sound acceptable for most other positions, too. I just can’t see how the EQ “averaging” thing can get you anything but inaccuracy at all positions. I mean, assuming you need EQ, you get inaccuracy for “free” with no EQ at all, don’t you? Why trade one inaccurate response curve for another? At least EQing for a primary position gets it right in one place.

Regards,
Wayne
Excellent point. I do tend to watch movies with the wife and I just can't get self centered enough to ignore the fact that someone else may want to enjoy the whole experience as much as I do.

On second thoughts - Sod them. I'm going to re-EQ for me me me me! I'm the only one that can tell the difference anyway. I'll re-measure all six points without moving the mic from my chair. If that doesn't work, I'll turn it off and forget it. That would be a shame though. The smooth panning around the increased sound stage is quite beguiling - It's just the sacrifice in clarity I can't get over.

I'll see what happens and if I have a revalation of any sort, I'll report back.

Russell
russ.will is offline  
post #9 of 10 Old 05-26-06, 10:20 PM
Senior Shackster
Josuah
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 636
Re: Denon AVR-3806: Audessey & other confusion...

If you read the Audyssey publication, you'll find that their test results showed that EQing for multiple locations had a beneficial effect on on those multiple locations without making the primary position worse by what they (and I) would consider a meaningful amount. However, their research was for large theaters and auditoriums and so perhaps the operating parameters don't work as well for rooms that are too acoustically different.
Josuah is offline  
post #10 of 10 Old 05-27-06, 01:49 AM
Elite Shackster
 
Sonnie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama)
Posts: 22,577
My System
Re: Denon AVR-3806: Audessey & other confusion...

I think they may be hinging their bets on the fact that it does make a difference in the consumer environment... so much so they developed a $2500 consumer Sound Equalizer.

The way to verify which would be better is eq for the main listening position, take a measurement reading with REW. Don't move you mic that you use for REW from the main listening position. Now eq for multiple listening positions. Take another measurement reading with REW via that mic you didn't move. See what the difference is between the two.

I may do this and test it myself sometime this long weekend.

I wonder about that mic for the 3806 too. I may test it against my ECM.
Sonnie is offline  
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
audessey , avr3806 , confusion , denon

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now




PLEASE COMPLETE ALL REQUIRED FIELDS BELOW... THANKS!

REQUIRED FIELDS ON THIS PAGE
YOU MUST COMPLETE ALL OF THESE

Username
Password
Confirm Password
Email Address
Confirm Email Address
Random Question
Random Question #2




User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
PLEASE READ BELOW PRIOR TO ENTERING AN EMAIL ADDRESS!

ATTENTION!

YOU MUST ACTIVATE YOUR ACCOUNT!

Activation requires you reply to an email we will send you after you register... if you do not reply to this email, you will not be able to view certain areas of the forum or certain images... nor will you be able download software.

AN INVALID EMAIL ADDRESS WILL CAUSE YOUR ACCOUNT TO BE DELETED!

See our banned email list here: Banned Email List

We DO NOT respond to spamcop, boxtrapper and spamblocker emails... please add @hometheatershack DOT com to your whitelist prior to registering or you will get nowhere on your registration.


Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML is not allowed!
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 


For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome