Recommend a receiver for me! - Page 2 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #11 of 26 Old 10-18-11, 10:57 AM
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Re: Recommend a receiver for me!

I am a firm believer that the over all weight of the receiver is a strong indication of what is can do. Onkyo produces in general have decent sized power supplies and have been rated much better than other manufacturers. If it weighs less than 35lbs do not expect it to output even half of its rated all channels driven specifications.

Home theater:
Onkyo 805, Yamaha YDP2006EQ, Samson Servo 600 amp
3 EV Sentry 500 monitors across the front, 4 Mission 762i's Surrounds, SVS PB13U sub, Panasonic BDT220, Harmony 1100, Nintendo WiiU
Panasonic PT-AE8000 on a 120" 2,35:1 fixed screen

Living room system:
Sherwood/Newcastle R972, Mission 765's, SVS SBS02's, A/D/S MS3u sub, Yamaha YDG2030EQ
Yamaha KX-393 Tape deck, CDC 805 CD changer, Panasonic BD60, Sony turntable PS-T20
Panasonic TC-P50ST60, HD-PVR & WDTV Live, Harmony 900

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post #12 of 26 Old 10-18-11, 11:10 AM
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Re: Recommend a receiver for me!

Hmmm....note to cheapo manufacturers....add lead to receiver casings...
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post #13 of 26 Old 10-18-11, 11:18 AM
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Re: Recommend a receiver for me!

Quote:
Andre wrote: View Post
add lead to receiver casings...
LOL

A great example of what a receiver should be built like. Three years ago Onkyo had the 805, 875 and 905, I personally have the 805. It weighs 54lbs and was benched tested by Secrets and did 110 watts per channel all 7 channels driven. Its sticker specs are 135watts per channel. Thats unheard of for a receiver that originally sold for just over $1000.
I all boils down to the power supply, if its got a small PS it cant drive the internal amps, its just that simple.

With regards to the NAD T747 They do make decent receivers but dont offer THX processing and there proprietary auto room setup is very basic unlike Audyssey MultEQ XT. I highly recommend the Onkyo 709 as it does output 80watts per channel all channels driven (bench tested) has Audyssey, THX certification and uses the Qdeo video processing (mush better than Faroudja DCDi in the NAD)

Home theater:
Onkyo 805, Yamaha YDP2006EQ, Samson Servo 600 amp
3 EV Sentry 500 monitors across the front, 4 Mission 762i's Surrounds, SVS PB13U sub, Panasonic BDT220, Harmony 1100, Nintendo WiiU
Panasonic PT-AE8000 on a 120" 2,35:1 fixed screen

Living room system:
Sherwood/Newcastle R972, Mission 765's, SVS SBS02's, A/D/S MS3u sub, Yamaha YDG2030EQ
Yamaha KX-393 Tape deck, CDC 805 CD changer, Panasonic BD60, Sony turntable PS-T20
Panasonic TC-P50ST60, HD-PVR & WDTV Live, Harmony 900


Last edited by tonyvdb; 10-18-11 at 11:28 AM.
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post #14 of 26 Old 10-18-11, 01:33 PM
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Re: Recommend a receiver for me!

Quote:
cyniclaus wrote: View Post
Your point is well taken, and I was probably speaking too generally, but my point was that you don't need massive woofers in your mains if you have a sub.
As a person who just ordered a pair of 15" midwoofers to use in his mains, I have to say I disagree. You don't need heavy woofers that plumb the depths, but you do want lots of surface area and high sensitivity. The more surface area and the higher the sensitivity, the less magnetic flux and current induced heat causing distortion, as well as less excursion induced distortion.

Quote:
Bass being non-directional, I've always heard that the CW is to cross over your powered sub to handle at least 80hz and below to free up the mains to concentrate on efficiently putting out high quality sound. I listen to a lot of bass-heavy electronic music. Apples to oranges, perhaps, but the biggest gripe I have with my Logic7 system in my car is that even though it has two dedicated subs, it still sends bass to the little 4" speakers, which makes it impossible for the system to effectively articulate the lower midrange when the same speakers are trying to reproduce a pounding or pulsing bassline.
In my opinion (and take it as just that), mains want to be capable of about 112-115db @ 1m @ 120hz. This lets it hit reference levels (105db peaks @ listening position) without too much distortion (which causes things to sound "too loud" even if we don't recognize it as distortion)

The average speaker's woofer (which is often a 6.5" midwoofer )

1) runs out of steam mechanically way before than
2) is inefficient and needs hundreds of watts to even attempt those SPLs... which means more heat and thus more distortion

Quote:
All that being said, my current HT setup that I'm junking cost me over $2500 from a big box store and it sounds like doo-doo, so I'm definitely inclined to listen to your advice, but I just wanted to give you the perspective I'm coming from...limited and erroneous as it may be
We're only here to help you get what YOU feel is an AWESOME HT

the JTRs I recommended are one speaker you might want to put some serious thought into.. neutral, effortless, and very fdetailed.

http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/triple-8ht-lp/

Consider a pair for now, no center channel as that would get pricey without a world of benefit. Your surround speakers don't need to be as capable or even the same brand as your mains FWIW. With two high sensitivity 8" woofers, they'll handle the lower midrange and upper bass the way you expect from main speakers, without any redundant extension that won't be used. They are sealed so they will have no issue crossing seamlessly to your subwoofer at that 80hz point.

As for the NAD, I'm sure it's a good choice. That said, I haven't personally seen anyone get the marantz "pop of death" even once the last year, and I am someone that prefers to buy products that have been actually measured rather than marketing rhetoric reviews about sound quality differences. the marantz was recommended because it's been measured to do 210wpc into 4 ohms and has powerful 7vRMS preouts - the two biggest signs of excellent perceived sound quality.

Quote:
Where did you get this spec, any info on other marantz models? Im curious what my SR8002 and the AV7005 measured. Obviously both the 8003 and 7005 are good recommendations but given their used price is about equal the 7005 seems like a no-brainer.
I don't know. the AV7005 has never been measured to my knowledge. TLS Guy over at audioholics boards measured his AV8003 and gave that particular number. If you want to measure your AV7005...
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post #15 of 26 Old 10-18-11, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Recommend a receiver for me!

Quote:
tonyvdb wrote: View Post
With regards to the NAD T747 They do make decent receivers but dont offer THX processing and there proprietary auto room setup is very basic unlike Audyssey MultEQ XT. I highly recommend the Onkyo 709 as it does output 80watts per channel all channels driven (bench tested) has Audyssey, THX certification and uses the Qdeo video processing (mush better than Faroudja DCDi in the NAD)
The number one selling point for me is going to be the sound quality, followed by output. I'm not even going to run a video signal into the receiver. Maybe there's an older receiver out there with excellent audio circuitry that can be picked up used for dirt cheap because it doesn't have the video capabilities that people expect nowadays. That's essentially what attracts me to the NAD. I guess the Audyssey is a positive though, especially since I'd be at a loss at how to "tune" my own system even if I had the necessary equipment.

Is the THX really worth it? I've heard it's mostly a marketing thing where the company has to pay a lot of money to get their product tested and have that logo on their AVR.
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post #16 of 26 Old 10-18-11, 04:55 PM
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Re: Recommend a receiver for me!

Quote:
cyniclaus wrote: View Post
The number one selling point for me is going to be the sound quality, followed by output. I'm not even going to run a video signal into the receiver. Maybe there's an older receiver out there with excellent audio circuitry that can be picked up used for dirt cheap because it doesn't have the video capabilities that people expect nowadays.
If your using HDMI you need to run it through the receiver if you want the uncompressed audio formats from BluRay movies as you cant get that through Optical or coax.
If you can find a Onkyo TX SR805 snap it up as it used top of the line Burr Brown DACs and like I pointed out very large transformer.

Quote:
Is the THX really worth it? I've heard it's mostly a marketing thing where the company has to pay a lot of money to get their product tested and have that logo on their AVR.
If you watch alot of movies the THX processing is a huge bonus as it gives you some very useful surround modes (I use them almost exclusively)

Home theater:
Onkyo 805, Yamaha YDP2006EQ, Samson Servo 600 amp
3 EV Sentry 500 monitors across the front, 4 Mission 762i's Surrounds, SVS PB13U sub, Panasonic BDT220, Harmony 1100, Nintendo WiiU
Panasonic PT-AE8000 on a 120" 2,35:1 fixed screen

Living room system:
Sherwood/Newcastle R972, Mission 765's, SVS SBS02's, A/D/S MS3u sub, Yamaha YDG2030EQ
Yamaha KX-393 Tape deck, CDC 805 CD changer, Panasonic BD60, Sony turntable PS-T20
Panasonic TC-P50ST60, HD-PVR & WDTV Live, Harmony 900

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post #17 of 26 Old 10-18-11, 05:30 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Recommend a receiver for me!

Quote:
GranteedEV wrote: View Post

In my opinion (and take it as just that), mains want to be capable of about 112-115db @ 1m @ 120hz. This lets it hit reference levels (105db peaks @ listening position) without too much distortion (which causes things to sound "too loud" even if we don't recognize it as distortion)
:
I can't argue with you there...mostly because I don't know enough about those specs to appreciate them After my experience with the Klipsch Synergys I'm kind of afraid to buy speakers without auditioning them. Maybe I can find some place that has some of the options, including the triple-8ht-lp to listen to.... $1099 a speaker is more than I was planning on spending, though I wouldn't be absolutely opposed if it would pay off in sonic sweetness.

Right now, I'm focused on the AVR decision though. I've already got a buyer for my Klipsch and the Onkyo AVR that I got from a HTIB; he's picking them up before the end of the month and I will need something to drive my old JBL Northridges just to be able to still watch movies while I make up my mind on the rest.


Quote:
GranteedEV wrote: View Post
The average speaker's woofer (which is often a 6.5" midwoofer )

1) runs out of steam mechanically way before than
2) is inefficient and needs hundreds of watts to even attempt those SPLs... which means more heat and thus more distortion
:
You make a convincing argument, but I just wish I could take a setup with a powerful sub, run 6.5 mains and then 8s, 10s, or even 15s to see what kind of difference I could hear. I somehow doubt Best Buy would be able to accomodate that in a meaningful way.


Quote:
GranteedEV wrote: View Post
As for the NAD, I'm sure it's a good choice. That said, I haven't personally seen anyone get the marantz "pop of death" even once the last year, and I am someone that prefers to buy products that have been actually measured rather than marketing rhetoric reviews about sound quality differences. the marantz was recommended because it's been measured to do 210wpc into 4 ohms and has powerful 7vRMS preouts - the two biggest signs of excellent perceived sound quality.
Here is a test of the NAD T747. I have no idea what I'm looking at, but maybe you can tell me what you think? HT Labs Measurements

As I said before, I was considering the 6004 since there were very positive reviews on the audio performance, one stating that it made the 6005 sound bad in comparison since they started using Denon components in that model, ostensibly to make it more reliable. But in the reviews of the NAD, people talk about the sound quality like it's a religious experience or something. Guess it could be fanboyism or hyperbole though

Last edited by cyniclaus; 10-18-11 at 05:37 PM.
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post #18 of 26 Old 10-18-11, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Recommend a receiver for me!

Quote:
tonyvdb wrote: View Post
If your using HDMI you need to run it through the receiver if you want the uncompressed audio formats from BluRay movies
The Oppo BDP-93 lets you run one HDMI to the receiver for audio and another directly to the projector for video

Quote:
tonyvdb wrote: View Post
If you can find a Onkyo TX SR805 snap it up as it used top of the line Burr Brown DACs and like I pointed out very large transformer.
Hmm, I'll look at that as a possibiliy... there's a seller on Amazon that has one for $460 shipped


Quote:
tonyvdb wrote: View Post
If you watch alot of movies the THX processing is a huge bonus as it gives you some very useful surround modes (I use them almost exclusively)
I'll have to research that a bit...not sure what a "surround mode" would do other than alter the intent of whomever mastered the mix
EDIT: OK, I see that it tries to compensate for limitations in the physical layout of your room. Interesting.

Last edited by cyniclaus; 10-18-11 at 05:57 PM.
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post #19 of 26 Old 10-18-11, 05:53 PM
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Re: Recommend a receiver for me!

Quote:
cyniclaus wrote: View Post
Maybe there's an older receiver out there with excellent audio circuitry that can be picked up used for dirt cheap because it doesn't have the video capabilities that people expect nowadays. That's essentially what attracts me to the NAD.
You are definitely not alone on this general idea. I personally sacrificed a whole slew of really sweet features: Lower power (110 vs 140 (for what those published specs are worth)), fewer channels (7.1 vs 9.2), lower Audyssey version (multi vs DSX), video processing (none vs reon), networking (not even firmware vs firmware/streaming), OSD (none vs full function). Thats not all but you get the idea, some pretty substantial losses. For what? ALL of this sacrifice for just a lower noise floor, more musical performance and a more detailed and defined sound. Better hdmi stability and a cooler running unit was a bonus but ultimately it was just a matter of falling in love with the better quality sound.

Keep in mind that video processing can often be done at the display and is often redundant in a AVR. Network streaming was also redundant as a simple blu ray player can often do a better job (I know my cheap Samsung does really well for pandora and netflix) and obviously an external amp makes power ratings irrelevant.
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post #20 of 26 Old 10-18-11, 05:57 PM
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Re: Recommend a receiver for me!

Quote:
cyniclaus wrote: View Post
After my experience with the Klipsch Synergys I'm kind of afraid to buy speakers without auditioning them.
Klipsch speakers imo are pretty unbalanced and harsh. I can understand your apprehension but it`s got more to do with what you`re looking for than how you`re buying. If you just randomly search `good speakers for HT` or something you might get a lot of recommendations for klipsch - it`s popular and it`s got an instant appeal to a lot of people but not very smooth or accurate - I can definitely think of dozens of speakers I would be happy to buy unheard however. It`s all about knowing what to look for in the measurements. A lot of subjective user reviews can be full of misleading statements.

Quote:
Here is a test of the NAD T747. I have no idea what I'm looking at, but maybe you can tell me what you think? HT Labs Measurements
Let's see:

(two channels driven) -
Quote:
Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 137.4 watts and 1 percent distortion at 197.1 watts.
This is a good measurement for a mid level receiver and shows a decent amp section - the amp can be probably treated as a roughly 80 watt per channel amp for most speaker loads. For the price you`re paying it should be a nice deal and is really what a receiver should be able to do minimum IMO. Unfortunately there is no measurement given for the preamp section of this receiver. I would want to contact NAD and ask them what the preout voltage on this receiver is.

Quote:
But in the reviews of the NAD, people talk about the sound quality like it's a religious experience or something. Guess it could be fanboyism or hyperbole though
There are electronics with transparent sound, and electronics that don't have that or are being driven outside of their limitations - and you`d be surprised how many people fit into the latter criteria. Beyond that everything else is hyperbole with respect to sound quality of electronics.
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