Wife said "YES" to holes in walls!!! (new to IB, plz hlp) - Page 4 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 66 Old 01-27-10, 04:44 PM
Elite Shackster
 
lsiberian's Avatar
lsiberian
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 2,625
Re: Wife said "YES" to holes in walls!!! (new to IB, plz hlp)

Quote:
dascth wrote: View Post
It would have to help a lot in order to motivate me to use more "political capital" with the wife, if you know what I mean.

I could probably get away with it as long as at least one was in a semi-hidden area up high (see pics of room).

Then again, I want to have opposed drivers to cancel mechanical vibrations. Maybe I could do what I'm planning and then add another hole next instead of more drivers to the same hole?
Are you sure your wife will be ok with the level of bass these will generate. I know for a fact that a well designed 12" sub can cause earthquake like effects in a house. 2 15" subs in an IB will be even more powerful.
lsiberian is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 66 Old 01-27-10, 04:48 PM
Elite Shackster
 
lsiberian's Avatar
lsiberian
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 2,625
Re: Wife said "YES" to holes in walls!!! (new to IB, plz hlp)

Quote:
Ricci wrote: View Post
Dascth you are on the right track with your current train of thought. There is no need for super powered $600 drivers for an IB application Those drivers are made for higher power, space limited applications where the option to use 4,8, or 16 drivers in a huge enclosure is not an option. Even the best bass driver in the world is not going out perform 4 lesser, but still competently engineered $150-$250 drivers. Not every driver lends itself to IB either as you've noted. High BL/RE, low xmax, low mass and stiff suspensions being some characteristics to note.


Isiberian,

I don't want to take the OP's thread to far off track here. TC3HP is what the RLP's are based on from what I know. Standard overhung topology with shorting rings (Axis/TC3000 is overhung too.) The RLS series does use LMT tech and is made by TC, but it was a commisioned design by SS and is not anywhere close to the TC/AP 5400/Ultra line other than using LMT on the vc otherwise nearly everything about them is different. The motor is based on a 3" OD LMT vc with the TC3000 frame and a quad stack Axis/TC3000 type motor base. The BL is low for a 15" drive and the other electrical parameters are sort of "odd" which ends up with it having a very humped response and needing huge enclosures. I'm not knocking the driver it does do some things very well and it would actually make a good IB driver but it's too expensive to make sense in that app. You can get a couple of 18's or 15's for the same price that together will outperform it.

The only drivers that I'm aware of to use LMT are the LMS4000, LMS 5400/ Ultra, SS RLS 12 and 15, and the Eclipse SW8000 and SW8200 (these have the same type of "odd" characteristics as the RLS's ) . Also the upcoming LMSR12 and 15 from TC. Just because they are using the same technology does not mean that they perform the same, just as every sub that is underhung or overhung does not guarantee performance. There can be bad implementations of XBL just as with LMT. I don't think that you can look at the Tumult 15 ($300)and CSS SDX15 ($290) tests by Illka and state that it is how all XBL drives will perform, nor the LMS 5400 18 ($900-$1200) for LMT. I'd expect one of Kevin's Maelstrom X 21" drives to perform pretty well perhaps much better than either of the 2 XBL 15's and I'd also expect one of the cheaper and smaller Eclipse or SS LMT subs to perform a little less well than the big dog 5400 18". XBL is also licensed out FWIW while I think that all of the LMT subs made came from TC.

I would completely agree with you about using higher quality drivers if this was anything other than IB. Not all subs are good in IB apps. LMS 5400 one of the best drivers ever made being one of them. It's too expensive and the huge motor and BL actually is wasted while you end up with a response that likely needs EQ'd up at the bottom. Not what you want in an IB at all. The 18" RLP's could do well but the extra cost is not worth it IMHO when you can get 2 of Fi's 18's for less and they will have more displacement, higher sensitivity, 2 motors to share the power, a flatter deeper extended natural FR and if you damage one they are much cheaper and easier to replace.
Excellent explanation. I think you summed it up very well.
lsiberian is offline  
post #33 of 66 Old 01-27-10, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
Shackster
dascth
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 36
Re: Wife said "YES" to holes in walls!!! (new to IB, plz hlp)

Quote:
lsiberian wrote: View Post
Are you sure your wife will be ok with the level of bass these will generate. I know for a fact that a well designed 12" sub can cause earthquake like effects in a house. 2 15" subs in an IB will be even more powerful.
Well I've gotten one guy saying 2x15 is too weak for an IB install and you saying it'll be a decent earthquake. I have NO idea how this will turn out. I will be able to tweak the sound a bit with my BFD. I can always turn down the volume or bass if it really is too much. I kinda doubt it will be though. And she's a really cool girl. I'm 30 and she's 25 and we don't have kids yet so now's the time to get the "foot" in the door



Any comments on the manifold construction questions I posted?
dascth is offline  
 
post #34 of 66 Old 01-27-10, 06:42 PM
Banned!
Ryan
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: sfsd
Posts: 1,074
Re: Wife said "YES" to holes in walls!!! (new to IB, plz hlp)

IMHO, completely ignore the 12's = earthquake opinion, build a manifold that you can easily put 2 more drivers in so you can do all 4 in one if you decide to later, but place the manifold in a location such that you can add a second manifold should you decide to a: add 2 more drivers and b: decide on separate locations.

That way, you have 1 hole to house 2 opposing drivers for vibration. You can later add 2 more drivers with 4 subs in 1 manifold, or, make a second hole, second manifold, and have both with opposing drivers for vibration.
Ryan Anderson is offline  
post #35 of 66 Old 01-28-10, 01:32 AM Thread Starter
Shackster
dascth
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 36
Re: Wife said "YES" to holes in walls!!! (new to IB, plz hlp)

Yup, that's what I was thinking. Thanks again!
dascth is offline  
post #36 of 66 Old 01-28-10, 12:51 PM
Elite Shackster
 
Ricci's Avatar
Josh
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 2,431
Re: Wife said "YES" to holes in walls!!! (new to IB, plz hlp)

Quote:
dascth wrote: View Post
1. How did you learn about all these types of drivers and not just pick the info up from people saying "oh this rocks"... it's impressive.
2. Is there something I can read somewhere that will decipher all the stuff I hear people reference WRT driver parameters? I know these comments weren't targeted to me, but I really would love to learn the technology behind all those parameters. My background is in EE and I'm a quick learner; I just need a trough to drink from..
By spending may too much time and effort researching and reading up on these things... Some of what you hear from people is enlightening and other bits are not. Your filter gets better as you go. If something is backed up with science and makes sense to you then it's probably worth trusting. I try not to put too much stock in subjective "! it's the best thing ever" type of comments.

Try reading the Adire white papers, the Danley Sound Labs white papers, TC Sounds/ AP, etc. Some of the AES papers are really good. You'll learn a lot from looking at driver designs. Definitely look up discussion about LMT/LMS (linear motor tech), XBL, overhung, underhung, Mmag, DD (JBL Dual drive), Co drive, Steallus, Split coil, etc... Just reading about these various ways to implement the vc's and magnetic gap will teach you a lot about how a driver operates and what effects changing various aspects will have. Pictures are worth a thousand words. Maybe even google some things. Drivers are basically just an electric motor. The TSP parameters are related to one aspect or another of a driver that is usually not that hard to grasp once you understand what it means in more normal language. They are a system that has resistance, inductance and capacitance.
Ricci is offline  
post #37 of 66 Old 01-28-10, 01:19 PM
Banned!
Ryan
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: sfsd
Posts: 1,074
Re: Wife said "YES" to holes in walls!!! (new to IB, plz hlp)

Quote:
Ricci wrote: View Post
By spending may too much time and effort researching and reading up on these things... Some of what you hear from people is enlightening and other bits are not. Your filter gets better as you go. If something is backed up with science and makes sense to you then it's probably worth trusting. I try not to put too much stock in subjective "! it's the best thing ever" type of comments.

Try reading the Adire white papers, the Danley Sound Labs white papers, TC Sounds/ AP, etc. Some of the AES papers are really good. You'll learn a lot from looking at driver designs. Definitely look up discussion about LMT/LMS (linear motor tech), XBL, overhung, underhung, Mmag, DD (JBL Dual drive), Co drive, Steallus, Split coil, etc... Just reading about these various ways to implement the vc's and magnetic gap will teach you a lot about how a driver operates and what effects changing various aspects will have. Pictures are worth a thousand words. Maybe even google some things. Drivers are basically just an electric motor. The TSP parameters are related to one aspect or another of a driver that is usually not that hard to grasp once you understand what it means in more normal language. They are a system that has resistance, inductance and capacitance.
That there could be stickied
Ryan Anderson is offline  
post #38 of 66 Old 01-28-10, 01:54 PM
Elite Shackster
 
lsiberian's Avatar
lsiberian
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 2,625
Re: Wife said "YES" to holes in walls!!! (new to IB, plz hlp)

Quote:
Ryan Anderson wrote: View Post
IMHO, completely ignore the 12's = earthquake opinion, build a manifold that you can easily put 2 more drivers in so you can do all 4 in one if you decide to later, but place the manifold in a location such that you can add a second manifold should you decide to a: add 2 more drivers and b: decide on separate locations.

That way, you have 1 hole to house 2 opposing drivers for vibration. You can later add 2 more drivers with 4 subs in 1 manifold, or, make a second hole, second manifold, and have both with opposing drivers for vibration.
Why ignore it? It's true I've seen 12" drivers shake a house before. 15" drivers will certainly be enough.
lsiberian is offline  
post #39 of 66 Old 01-28-10, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
Shackster
dascth
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 36
Re: Wife said "YES" to holes in walls!!! (new to IB, plz hlp)

I am familiar with a guy that started out with the idea of 4 DPL-15s and they told him to go with 2 FI IB318s. I'm not home so I can't run WinISD to compare, any thoughts though? His room is a lot smaller than mine and mine opens up to many areas. I'm afraid I'm going to be upgrading very quickly!
dascth is offline  
post #40 of 66 Old 01-28-10, 03:14 PM Thread Starter
Shackster
dascth
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 36
Re: Wife said "YES" to holes in walls!!! (new to IB, plz hlp)

*edit* I think I wasn't using WinISD right at this point. See page 3 for pics of WinISD comparisons */edit*
Well, got back to my machine and modeled it. It looks like two IB318s are louder by a bit than 2 DPL-15s (2dB at 20Hz and 4.5dB at >70Hz), but the DPL-15s are flatter (hence less dB advantage at 20Hz). 4 DPL-15s are louder than 2 IB318s below 30Hz and quieter above, but only barely in each case.

I'm really new to WinISD. I hope I'm using it right...

Last edited by dascth; 02-01-10 at 11:37 AM.
dascth is offline  
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
"yes" , (new , hlp) , holes , walls!!! , wife

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now




PLEASE COMPLETE ALL REQUIRED FIELDS BELOW... THANKS!

REQUIRED FIELDS ON THIS PAGE
YOU MUST COMPLETE ALL OF THESE

Username
Password
Confirm Password
Email Address
Confirm Email Address
Random Question
Random Question #2




User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
PLEASE READ BELOW PRIOR TO ENTERING AN EMAIL ADDRESS!

ATTENTION!

YOU MUST ACTIVATE YOUR ACCOUNT!

Activation requires you reply to an email we will send you after you register... if you do not reply to this email, you will not be able to view certain areas of the forum or certain images... nor will you be able download software.

AN INVALID EMAIL ADDRESS WILL CAUSE YOUR ACCOUNT TO BE DELETED!

See our banned email list here: Banned Email List

We DO NOT respond to spamcop, boxtrapper and spamblocker emails... please add @hometheatershack DOT com to your whitelist prior to registering or you will get nowhere on your registration.


Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML is not allowed!
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 


For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome