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HTS-X2 - an experimental N8 reflective screen mix

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#1 ·
We have a number of experimental mixes in development; one that has been designated HTS-X2 has recently been tested by 1canuck2 and he will be adding info and photos to this thread.

HTS-X2 is part of a family of mixes that will run from N9 to ~N7.6. The paints used in these mixes are readily available in many, if not most, areas of the U.S. and Canada. Basically, a N6 gray paint is added to regular Cream&Sugar™ to get darker shades.

HTS-X2 is a N8 reflective screen mix.

Addendum:
This is the mix that will be called Elektra™ N8.
 
#40 · (Edited)
Harpmaker - Thank you for your creative formula!

1canuck2 - Thank you for all hard work to prepare a screen using this new mix.

Question to Harpmaker - Do you have any plan for N9 or N8.5 mix? Also I would like to use Valsper paint...do you mind giving your HTS-X2(N8) formula for Valsper paint Or should I just bring your Behr formula and Lowes staff should be able to match the colors?

I am new member to this forum and very much inspired by your HTS-X2(N8) formula, its result and its simplicity. I would like to prepare DIY screen based on your formula but looking for N9 or N8.5 mix. My PJ is Mitsubishi HC3800 and I am not sure if N8 is too dark for it or not. My PJ is in basement and I am covering all my window to block all ambient light. Right now I am projecting on white wall but wanted to try out something different and better using your formula.

Appreciate your time and efforts. Keep up the good work!!!

Thanks again!

K.
 
#41 ·
Question to Harpmaker - Do you have any plan for N9 or N8.5 mix? Also I would like to use Valsper paint...do you mind giving your HTS-X2(N8) formula for Valsper paint Or should I just bring your Behr formula and Lowes staff should be able to match the colors?
First off, koyalo, welcome to the forum!

Yes, the mix series that HTS-X2 is a part of (to be called Elektra™) will run from N8.5 down to perhaps N7 (the bottom end is yet to be determined). It will be based on simply adding differing amounts of N6 gray paint to Cream&Sugar™, the more N6 paint added the darker the mix will be.

If you want a reflective N9 screen mix, this is already available in Cream&Sugar™. Check out it's thread here.

The amount of N6 paint to add to C&S™ to get Elektra™ N8.5 has yet to be determined, but it will be something close to only 1 or 1.5 fl. oz. per 48 fl. oz. of C&S™.

Please keep in mind that this thread is in the Developers Forum for a reason - the mixes are still in development.

I haven't had the N6 paint matched in Valspar paint yet, but I understand that Lowe's should have no trouble making it using the Behr tint formula, it all depends on the person behind the paint counter at Lowe's.

I am new member to this forum and very much inspired by your HTS-X2(N8) formula, its result and its simplicity. I would like to prepare DIY screen based on your formula but looking for N9 or N8.5 mix. My PJ is Mitsubishi HC3800 and I am not sure if N8 is too dark for it or not. My PJ is in basement and I am covering all my window to block all ambient light. Right now I am projecting on white wall but wanted to try out something different and better using your formula.
Are all of your walls in the projection room painted white? How large is your screen?
Your PJ is a bright one so more likely than not a N8 screen would work for you depending on how large your screen is.

Appreciate your time and efforts. Keep up the good work!!!
And we appreciate your taking the time to inquire into our screen mixes. :T
 
#44 ·
I went from a white Kilz2 screen (124" diag) to the N8 formula here and there were no negatives whatsoever from my perspective. Its not a super dark screen surface (its actually quite an attractive colour) and the image projected is plenty bright.

When I first started looking at DIY formulas, I was leaning towards an N8.5 or N9, partly out of fear that N8 would be too dark. I concluded that I was "wimping" out and should probably just stick with white if that was my fear.

If you do a calibration on your PJ after painting the screen, I am confident that you will be happy with the results at an N8 based on your PJ specs. I can honestly find no negative that I feel is a trade-off for the positive. My blacks are blacker and my whites still seem white (check out my Bolt screen shots). The colours are very rich (check out my Nemo screen shot). If you want to see more pics of my theatre, check out my PhotoBucket album. From page 3 there are shots of my colour scheme, you can see I have a white ceiling and reasonably light brown on the other walls, I just painted my screen wall a dark chocolate brown.

We also play Wii/Xbox with the wall sconces on but dimmed, and the image still looks excellent. Providing you have good ambient light control for daylight especially, I don't think you'll regret going N8. Some folks who went N8 later go N7... I am not a professional by any stretch, but my eye tells me I made the right decision.
 
#46 · (Edited)
If you do a calibration on your PJ after painting the screen, I am confident that you will be happy with the results at an N8 based on your PJ specs. I can honestly find no negative that I feel is a trade-off for the positive. My blacks are blacker and my whites still seem white (check out my Bolt screen shots). The colours are very rich (check out my Nemo screen shot). If you want to see more pics of my theatre, check out my PhotoBucket album. From page 3 there are shots of my colour scheme, you can see I have a white ceiling and reasonably light brown on the other walls, I just painted my screen wall a dark chocolate brown.
I am going to paint my walls with dark colour too but not now in Canadian winter!!

There is no doubt about picture quality especially for movie watching from your screenshots. They are probably the best screenshots I have ever seen from someone's projector screen!! :T

A brilliant formula which produces awesome results!!!

I agree. Re-calibration is a must once we have new screen. How did you do your calibration? Did you use any special like "spears and munsil" disc?

-K
 
#50 ·
The sample of the Valspar match for a N6 gray cured enough so I could get a spectro reading and it isn't good. It is one of the few sample misreads I've gotten at Lowe's. I'll try again next time I get to a Lowe's. I hope to try the other Lowe's store that is "near" me (if you can call 35 miles away near - yeah, I live in the boonies), but it might not be in the near future due to the holidays coming up. There is a slim chance I might be able to do it tomorrow "if the creek don't rise". :)

This is a good example however of how one can't use their eyes to match colors accurately. Only the most discerning eye can see any color difference in the N6 sample and the Valspar match even when dry and side-by-side. When paint is still wet there is no way to accurately judge it's color to the tolerances we need for screens no matter how much "experience" you have. A good guess really isn't good enough.
 
#53 ·
I'm a big Benjamin Moore fan (ulti-matte FTW), and the last time I used Behr for house painting I was not a fan, but this formula worked well for me with Behr as the base.

I went to buy the Behr the week after they'd pulled it from the shelf in my local HD. I had to drive to two different HD's to get the last remaining cans in the city... They have a replacement product that includes primer, but I don't know if Harp has had a look at them yet...
 
#54 ·
I went to buy the Behr the week after they'd pulled it from the shelf in my local HD. I had to drive to two different HD's to get the last remaining cans in the city... They have a replacement product that includes primer, but I don't know if Harp has had a look at them yet...
Nope, not yet. Will get some today it the opportunity presents itself. I see no reason why the new Behr paint wouldn't work for our screen mixes since they don't depend on a large amount of translucency to work as some other screen mixes do.

Screen translucency is a two-edged sword in that while it allows any reflective particles in the mix to be more visible below the surface of the paint (which our mixes already achieve to a point since no paint we have found so far is totally opaque) it will soften and blur the projected image if carried too far. This is a concern with todays high definition PJ's. Back in the day when most PJ's were low resolution and/or had a visible "screen door effect" where you saw a grid pattern in the image if it got too large or you sat too close to the screen, those overly translucent mixes helped to give a better image due to their blurring effect. Those days are pretty much gone and those mixes are so yesterday. :bigsmile:
 
#55 ·
OK, you're not going to believe this... I did get to the other Lowe's store today and had my N6 sample color-matched again and even though the tint formula was different than the match I got at the other Lowe's it STILL isn't right! :hissyfit: The good news is that one or two more tries should get the correct color. I can only assume that there is a bug of some kind in Lowe's color-matching software; it isn't off color enough for most people to care, but when you're dealing with the level of precision that we are it does matter.

I also got to a Home Depot and now have a tint formula for N6 gray in a 8 fl. oz. sampler. This would do for making the Elektra™ N8.5 and Elektra™ N8 (also called HTS-X2) mixes. For making the darker Elektra™ mixes you would need to get a full quart of N6.

Even though this sampler is not the Behr flat latex Enamel it will do for coloring these Elektra™ mixes since relatively little needs to be added to C&S™ to darken it to the N8.5 and N8 shades.

Code:
[B]N6 match in Behr Premium Plus ULTRA Interior/Exterior Flat 8 fl. oz. sampler Medium Base #UL204:[/B]
Tint:
      oz.     348 oz.
B -  0        98
C -  0        20
F -  0          5
 
#56 ·
So what would be final formula for 8.5. Sorry my question may be too dumb but I am new in understanding the color code but appreciate if you can give complete 8.5 formula with N6, C&S + Metallic Silver for my 110 inch screen.

How much mix should I prepare?

Thanks, K
 
#57 ·
If you look back to post 41 in this thread, you'll see Harp hasn;t got the final formula for N8.5 yet. But, why not just go for N8, your PJ has the lumens to do it, esp. at your proposed screen size.

As for how much, you'll probably end up with ~50-52 fl oz which will be plenty to do three coats (my recommendation) and have some left over.

You'll need a quart of Behr #1850 (or equivalent) tinted for C&S plus 16 fl. oz. of Craft Smart metallic Silver. You'll be adding some amount of N6 to that. If you go for N8, it will be 6 fl. oz., if you are set on the N8.5 it will be less (I think Harp alluded to 1-2 fl oz).

There's not much point in trying to make less than this since:
You'll have to buy the 1850 in a quart as anything smaller won't be enough.
The Craft paint comes in 16 fl oz, so is easy to add (no measuring required).
The only thing to measure is the N6. You could get away with buying one of the 8 fl oz sample pots and save a little cost their.
The beauty of this formula for me was how easy it was to mix. You will also add ~2 fl oz of distilled water (use it to rinse out the containers and thin the paint a little).

Trying to mix less than this will not save you any money since you'd have to buy more than one sample pot of the 1850, which is relatively more costly than a quart (per volume), plus you'll have more complicated measuring to do.
 
#58 ·
Your question isn't dumb, K. Never be afraid to ask questions here. :T Things like color tint codes and formulae can be hard to grasp. We try to put our tint formulae in a form that can be printed out and handed to paint store personnel to have the paint mixed (although Lowe's wouldn't know what to do with a Home Depot formula). This refers to colors like the N6 gray and not a screen mix such as Cream&Sugar™ or Black Widow™, those have to be mixed by you.

I don't have a mix formula for Elektra™ N8.5 yet, but I could probably have one ready in 3 or 4 days. I know about how much N6 paint would have to be added to Cream&Sugar™ to make it, but I have to test a few samples to make sure.

As for how much mix to prepare, I suggest about 1 fl. oz. of mix per square foot of screen surface. Multiply the width of your screen in inches by the height of your screen in inches and divide that number by 144 to get total square feet. It's better to have too much than not enough.

The standard C&S™ mix makes 48 fl. oz. to which is added the N6 paint. In the case of a N8.5 Elektra™ mix I doubt more than 2 fl. oz. of N6 would be added to that 48 oz.. This should be more than enough for your 110" screen.

I'll post the complete formula for Elektra™ N8.5 when I have it ready. :T
 
#59 ·
Your question isn't dumb, K. Never be afraid to ask questions here. :T Things like color tint codes and formulae can be hard to grasp. We try to put our tint formulae in a form that can be printed out and handed to paint store personnel to have the paint mixed (although Lowe's wouldn't know what to do with a Home Depot formula). This refers to colors like the N6 gray and not a screen mix such as Cream&Sugar™ or Black Widow™, those have to be mixed by you.

I don't have a mix formula for Elektra™ N8.5 yet, but I could probably have one ready in 3 or 4 days. I know about how much N6 paint would have to be added to Cream&Sugar™ to make it, but I have to test a few samples to make sure.
Thank you...really appreciate it!

As for how much mix to prepare, I suggest about 1 fl. oz. of mix per square foot of screen surface. Multiply the width of your screen in inches by the height of your screen in inches and divide that number by 144 to get total square feet. It's better to have too much than not enough.
:T
You make complex things so simple to understand for newbie like me!! :clap:

- K
 
#63 ·
Definitely a second coat of primer will help. I would probably do a third. I did three Kilz2 primer coats over new drywall that my builder had primed with a single coat of cheap primer.

I would also do three coats of your screen paint as well.

Aside from plenty of coats, technique does matter. I used the Tiddler basic rolling method

Its not rocket science, but the method does work well. The key things for me were:
1. Use a low nap roller (6mm aka 1/4")
2. Move the roller slowly with even pressure

Tiddler's method of starting in the middle and rolling up and down to the extreme top and bottom in a few passes seemed to be a good way to get even paint distribution, and not overlapping each coat but going back over the previous coat and finishing with a down-rolled stroke was also quite successful (see the video). I worked from left to right as it seemed more logical to me, but he goes right to left.

Your first coat of screen paint will also look like poo, no matter how many primer coats you do. The second coat looked good, but I did a third coat for good measure.

I also watered down my paint with ~2 fl oz of distilled water.

Good luck.
 
#65 ·
So as I mentioned in another thread, I'm getting my 1st projector Mits HC3800 and am going to try the Elektra N8 mix maybe next weekend. I'll be painting it over Kilz2 on a piece of BOC. I have a DSLR Canon XTi and hope to show some of my results.

Since I'll be going through the painting process, I bought a little extra BOC to at least compare plain BOC with Elektra to convince myself afterwards it was worth it! If its helpful, I can paint an additional piece to send out to someone in the mail for them to do a proper comparison, or color analysis. The color bars comparison of different paint mixes in previous posts have helped me a lot.

Let me know if I can help in anyway. I think I owe it you guys...
 
#67 ·
That would be great Pyro2! All I need to spectro is about a square inch, but a screen sample about the size of an index card helps to get a real feel for what the screen surface looks like. I'll PM you my address.

If you have any "hairs" sticking up off the BOC after the primer dries it would be a good idea to lightly sand them off before applying the Elektra™ mix.

I too prefer the "ugly" color bar and contrast bar photos of screens to show screen attributes. I know shots of movies or TV look at lot nicer, but they don't tell the same story. ;)

One thing I will warn you about is that it is impossible to compare a white screen (BOC) and a gray screen (Elektra™) side-by-side; they are too different in color. The BOC will always have the whiter whites and the gray screen will always have the blacker blacks. The way a gray screen works is that when you have a whole screen that color there is no brighter reference in the image so our brains tell us that the snow, white dress or white car you are seeing on the screen is really white when it fact it is gray. It's a form of optical illusion, but it works very well. If you actually have a white target (a sheet of white paper of small piece of BOC) on the screen then that will naturally be brighter than the gray screen and the gray will look duller (but it will have more contrast).
 
#70 ·
Agree and understand the difference between comparing the two side by side, but I still wish to compare to convince myself that the exotic paints were worth the trouble as opposed to the plain BOC. Of course different ambient light conditions are part of that comparison. This will be my first PJ and screen so simply seeing another screen side by side in person may help put into perspective how much the screen can change the image. It will also help me understand the differences between white and gray screens.

I will easily send you a index card or larger chunk. After thinking about it, what I would REALLY like to see is a side by side comparison of this verse Black Widow. Will you agree this is a fair comparison that is meaningful? If someone has either a full BW screen or those vertical panels that are often compared, I would love to send a piece approx 24" x 54" for photo comparison. Only issue I forsee is having enough paint left over from the standard mixture amounts.

Harp, are you capable of doing gain measurements across the viewing cone or does that need to be sent elsewhere? How large of a sample is needed for that?
 
#72 ·
I will easily send you a index card or larger chunk. After thinking about it, what I would REALLY like to see is a side by side comparison of this verse Black Widow. Will you agree this is a fair comparison that is meaningful?
Yes, I think you could make a fair comparison between Elektra™ N8 and Black Widow™ since there is only about N0.5 difference between them. I would expect Black Widow™ would still have the darkest blacks since it is the darker mix, but I'm not sure which would have the brightest whites. It would be an interesting test and one that will eventually be done.

If someone has either a full BW screen or those vertical panels that are often compared, I would love to send a piece approx 24" x 54" for photo comparison. Only issue I forsee is having enough paint left over from the standard mixture amounts.

Harp, are you capable of doing gain measurements across the viewing cone or does that need to be sent elsewhere? How large of a sample is needed for that?
I can't do gain tests yet (but I'm working on it) so Mech is your man for that. If he agrees to test the gain of your sample he could probably also do a SBS comparison of Elektra™ N8 and Black Widow™ if your sample is large enough. Mech will have to tell you the sample size.
 
#74 ·
It wouldn't hurt anything to have those as well, but the bar shots are mostly for comparing different screen samples side-by-side. The photos you already posted show the screen nicely in my opinion, especially with your comment about them being what you see with your naked eye (or very close).

The color bar image I use is off the Digital Video Essentials DVD and the contrast bar image is a jpeg file from Tiddler at AVS. I have HCFR, but I've never installed it so I don't know what images it contains.
 
#77 ·
umr over at AVS (and I thought he offered over here too, but can't find it) is offering to test DIY samples. I'm planning to paint Elektra N8 this weekend. I would like to send a sample to umr as well as harpmaker and mechman as previously stated. Do you believe this mix is pretty much closed out in terms of development that you would advise to send it? If you forsee future changes, it may be confusing to keep track of.

I don't know if he'll even test it, but I'll extend my offer to him as I did here. Hopefully I have enough material and paint.
 
#78 ·
I don't think umr made that offer at HTS, but feel free to send him any samples you like. Be advised that while I'm sure umr's readings are accurate, they are only valid for his HT and do not represent the peak gain figures that are the industry norm. This is why his reading of the High Power screen was so much lower than what Da-Lite says it is.

The only potential change in the Elektra™ mixes would be if we changed the N6 "shade adjuster" to a darker gray to get darker mixes, but that would equate to starting all over again so I don't think that will happen.

In the coming months we will gather data and photos of the entire range of N values that will comprise the Elektra™ mixes and when that is done we'll post an introduction thread in the regular DIY Screens forum similar to the ones for C&S™, Scorpion™ and BW™.
 
#79 ·
Yeah if you want to send something out to me to take a look at that would be great. If you could send something the size of a sheet of paper that would be best. Not a big rush as my i1pro is going back to X-Rite tomorrow for it's yearly re-certification. I'm a couple months late on that this year.
 
#80 ·
Sounds good. I'm hoping to paint a 24" x 54" piece of BOC and ship it to someone who would like to do photo side by side comparisons. If mech or anyone else who has a full BW screen interested in doing this let me know. Either way I'll ship a 11"x8" piece to you, Harp and umr. Should even be interesting to see how umr and your results compare.
 
#81 ·
One thing that kind of bothered me about umr's first review is he is reporting something about Designer White that literally thousands of current users haven't reported as seeing, and that is a 'shimmering' effect'.

I don't know if this is a bias or actual observation, but it is one that I can say others (myself included) have not observed. Don't get me wrong, I am not putting him down. Some people though are pro commercial and feel DIY can't match up. One thing I would have liked to have seen from his review is that I can get sheet of DW for around $40 locally and make a 98-100" diagonal screen with frame for around $150. The specs and performance between DW and the ST130 are so close that I really think the price difference should also be taken into account. With that in mind I tend to think everything else is also going to get a similar comparison.

We also noted some slight differences in off axis readings and that could be attributed to setup, but it really isn't a huge difference. In fact it really would take a very good eye to pick up on it, but I don't doubt it is there.

This is the third person to do gain tests though, and so far they are all pretty much the same results.

Yes a ST130 probably does have a slight edge in some areas, but the real question I think that needs to be asked is if it is really that noticable and more important, is it worth a $1500 or more difference in price? I think when broken down that way it has a different outcome.

So I tend to think any other DIY test will have the same type of review... good but... however I think some very important details are missing. And this certainly is meant as no disrespect to umr or anyone.
 
#82 ·
If mech or anyone else who has a full BW screen interested in doing this let me know.
I no longer have a full BW screen. My screen was damaged and has been replaced by a Elite EZFrame CineGrey.

But I still have several panels and I'm sure one of them has BW on it. :T And I can get pretty much everything I need from the 11X8" piece.

As for Jeff's (umr) test, I wanted to take a run down to Missouri to see how he does things but my (actually my kids) schedule doesn't allow me to. And then I figured why bother. :dontknow: We've already accomplished most everything that he's done and the readings he has done up to this point confirmed ours so there's really no point. :huh: He's not doing anything that we haven't already done before him. It's nice to have our numbers and our data backed up by a more expensive spectro. :nerd:

If you want to send something out to him though feel free. :T
 
#83 ·
harpmaker: I'm still a bit confused on the difference between your gain testing and umr's? You mentioned umr's results were slightly lower than what da-lite publishes.

umr's results for WA DW were actually slightly higher than mech's at 0 degrees but much lower at 18/20 degrees:
umr: 1.29 @ 0 degrees
umr: 1.04 @ 18 degrees Reference Link

mech: 1.26 @ 0 degrees
mech: 1.16 @ 20 degrees
Reference Link

The 0 degrees is only 0.03 which is probably within the range of test accuracy and/or product sample to sample deviation. However the 18/20 degrees differed quiet drastically. Any thoughts?

mechman: What panels do you paint your test samples on?

Just primed my main screen and a 54" x 36" sample that I'll send out to as many as possible. If everyone's testing could match within reason than that would be good. Perhaps evidence of this has already been proved before?

Any idea how much area I should get out of 54 fl oz of Elektra? I'm planning on two coats.
 
#84 ·
mechman: What panels do you paint your test samples on?
I've used various panels over time - 1/8" pressed hardboard, 1/4" pressed hardboard, 1/8" foam poster board, etc. They all have their faults and advantages. I think I like working with the foam the best though. But they're not as durable as the hardboard. Plus you have to paint both sides to get them to lay flat. The 1/4" hardboard is probably the sturdiest material. And it stays flat after painting and after a long time in storage.

As for the gain readings, who knows. I admit that I haven't delved into Jeff's pdf as to how he got to those numbers. But I do know this, I followed and applied the industry standard. Someone mentioned that he may have gotten a bad sample as well - the wrong finish or something. I tend to agree with that because about the only thing I could disagree with him about was his DW conclusions. But I've never compared DW to the Studiotek. But I have large samples of each so I may in the future. :nerd: I do need to get grayscale and gamut readings from each of them...
 
#86 ·
Two Elektra N8 samples 12"x36" have been sent out to mechman and harpmaker today.

The samples were painted on JoAnn's Black Out Cloth. One coat of Kilz primer was rolled on. Then two coats of Elektra N8 was rolled on using a 1/4" nap roller. The first coat dried for about 4 hours before the 2nd was applied. I painted on the textured side, not the smooth side. This was because the smooth side was a yellowish color, and I originally installed the fabric to project on the white side in case I left the BOC and never painted.

I painted a large piece of cloth and these two samples were right next to each other, so they should be identical. They are shipped in a baton looking roll. Unroll them asap so they don't permanently stay rolled up. You may have to re-roll them the other direction to straighten it out.

I look forward to your test results especially he Munshell gray level and spectro. I made the samples large enough so you can hopefully hang the sample and compare to other screens. I am very interested in your opinion with Elektra N8 vs BW and Scorpion. Pics are always nice, but I agree its sometimes difficult to tell.



I hope to have some screen shots soon - mainly for ohhs and ahhs.
 
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