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  Topic Review (Newest First)
12-27-16 03:25 PM
Yiannis1970
Re: Munsell N5

If i may ask...are you planning to use N5 with which projector and on how big screen?
10-13-16 10:53 AM
WileE
Re: Munsell N5

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread... I have been looking for paint that is spectrally flat before running into this thread.

Has anyone tried Behr N520-5 "Iron Mountain"? When I look at the gray on their website by inspecting the code, it is rgb (117, 117, 117), which is the same RGB as the N5 18% gray's I've seen elsewhere. I am curious if a spectrometer would see it as N5.

I think it is a newer color then when this thread was created, so if this is N5, then it is probably easier to have them make that then to have them use this formula.
08-28-15 02:49 PM
bckevin
Re: Munsell N5

Thanks! I had a gallon made up, will put it on next week after priming the new drywall. It's not for the screen (have a 20 foot chunk of white 1.0 reflective screen material ordered off ebay - had it set up before at old place, looks great. This time, will be 185" 16:9), it's for the entire room forward of seating - walls and ceiling. Going on the advice that it's ideal for a viewing lab and it's not so dark that it will be a total cave.
08-27-15 07:52 AM
Yiannis1970
Re: Munsell N5

Hello and welcome to Shack!

No, the various finishes (matte, flat, eggshell) do not affect the formula. Couldn't understand exactly...do you want to paint your screen with N5 or the surrounding area?
08-26-15 01:31 PM
bckevin
Re: Munsell N5

Hi there - resurrecting long dead thread as my first post. Found the site through a search for grey theater paint. I'm thinking of doing the entire area forward of our viewing area in 18% grey - crazy talk? The big question is which style of Behr ultra deep base for the formula - flat? Does flat/matte/eggshell affect the formula? There's also a dead flat option but no idea what that means and description doesn't help. If anyone's listening, thanks for the advice!
07-26-13 08:44 PM
Harpmaker
Re: Munsell N5

Quote:
mintgreen wrote: View Post
having said that, I remembered my grading monitor can take readings from the probe in both xyY and XYZ; however if I place the probe on anything that doesn't emit light then it just registers black, so I think this avenue is well and truly scuppered
Yeah, it sounds like your colorimeter isn't working properly in reflectance mode. Bummer.

Something I have always meant to do, but never did, was to contact Golden and Liquitex and find out what their tolerances are for color (or neutrality) from batch to batch.

Ivory Black is produced from burning bone, Carbon Black (AKA Lamp Black) is made from burning petroleum and Mars Black is made from magnetic iron oxide. House paints in the U.S. that are made with Lamp Black and a regular white paint (which is "warm") becomes a "cool" color when much Lamp Black pigment is added to it. Neutral gray house paints are made with a regular titanium dioxide white base to which is added Lamp Black to darken it, and also Red Oxide and Yellow Oxide pigments are added to counter the blue push caused by using Lamp Black alone.
07-26-13 07:25 AM
mintgreen
Re: Munsell N5

Quote:
mintgreen wrote: View Post
I don't know if we have a disk still that came with the i1 but if we do it's pretty well hidden, and knowing our former tech guys I'd say it's been binned. I downloaded the version listed on x-rite alongside my discontinued product, however I just can't get it to work either on PC or Mac. The computer recognises my device and I can run iMatch, but in iShare it only shows the icon for the new i1Pro not my model, and the 5 coloured lights beside it don't show up anything, not red or green. The monitor icon underneath shows 5 red lights beside it. I've checked through their 'help' but it really is no use at all and I just can't seem to get anything to happen. I've also tried that BabelColor program, and although it recognises my i1, again I can't get it to do a thing with it. All the Calibrate buttons are grayed out, I can't input text anywhere, can't get anything to happen. It is only the trial version but it's not much of a trial if I can't try anything out.
having said that, I remembered my grading monitor can take readings from the probe in both xyY and XYZ; however if I place the probe on anything that doesn't emit light then it just registers black, so I think this avenue is well and truly scuppered
07-25-13 02:11 PM
mintgreen
Re: Munsell N5

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
As for software, the i1Share that came with your colorimeter should work fine.
I don't know if we have a disk still that came with the i1 but if we do it's pretty well hidden, and knowing our former tech guys I'd say it's been binned. I downloaded the version listed on x-rite alongside my discontinued product, however I just can't get it to work either on PC or Mac. The computer recognises my device and I can run iMatch, but in iShare it only shows the icon for the new i1Pro not my model, and the 5 coloured lights beside it don't show up anything, not red or green. The monitor icon underneath shows 5 red lights beside it. I've checked through their 'help' but it really is no use at all and I just can't seem to get anything to happen. I've also tried that BabelColor program, and although it recognises my i1, again I can't get it to do a thing with it. All the Calibrate buttons are grayed out, I can't input text anywhere, can't get anything to happen. It is only the trial version but it's not much of a trial if I can't try anything out.

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
How much paint do you need?
2 small rooms (not large enough to fit more then 2 ppl seated pretty much) and possibly 1 slightly larger one for client viewings. 4 walls, 2 coats (possibly 3 around the monitor), with the 2-tone pattern, and possibly the ceiling just with a single tone (haven't much thought about the ceiling but it will have to be neutral too)

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
I you truly require a* and b* values that are at or below 0.5 then you may have to adjust even the artist grays for stricter neutrality.
Liquitex Soft Body Mars Black has a Chroma value listed as being 0.04, this should translate well surely? Or their Basics Mars Black still has chroma at a mere 0.12

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
In my experience Mars Black is more bluish than Ivory Black, but even Ivory Black is cool and needs to be warmed with yellow a bit.
Have you checked out Lamp Black by Winsor and Newton? It uses Carbon Black which I think is supposed to be very neutral

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
The link you gave about mixing grays does not create neutral grays, but rather is about getting a range of gray colors to make paintings more interesting. Most people consider a true neutral gray as being ugly and "dead" and artists prefer to have some color in their shadows.
I was using this to check whether simple math can be used to get certain lightness values of gray rather than being about neutrality. I got an impression from another forum that this wouldn't be the case, but I don't believe that now (assuming that the white and black used are of the same concentration or whatever, I doubt that it would take too much acrylic paint to significantly darken wall paint but I could be wrong)


I have acquired a 50% (...) gray card from ProSpecImaging that claims to be certified neutral with L*a*b*, though they don't give thresholds. I'll use this, a camera, Final Cut Pro's color corrector and OSX's digital color meter to compare levels with what I can get from a paint store. Real shame I can't get those thresholds for my gray card though.
07-24-13 09:45 PM
Harpmaker
Re: Munsell N5

Hi mintgreen!

You should be able to use your colorimeter to read L*a*b* values, a spectrophotometer isn't required for that. Ambient light isn't a problem when using the i1Pro since the meter is in contact with the surface being measured. I don't know about the Display 2, but I would assume this is how it would work for taking "spot" readings as well.

As for software, the i1Share that came with your colorimeter should work fine. I think that in the neutrality parameters you have set (that are the same as ours are for "perfectly neutral") it won't matter much what Illuminant is used. However, if you need more accurate readings you can still use i1Share to take measurements, but save them to a text file and use the Lindbloom spreadsheet to do the required math.

How much paint do you need? If you only need a small amount Golden makes neutral grays from N8 to N2. These are heavy body acrylic paints that would need to be thinned with water to use like a house paint.

I you truly require a* and b* values that are at or below 0.5 then you may have to adjust even the artist grays for stricter neutrality. This can be a royal pain, but once you get a light neutral and a dark neutral you should be able to mix these in any ratio and the result will still be neutral.

In my experience Mars Black is more bluish than Ivory Black, but even Ivory Black is cool and needs to be warmed with yellow a bit.

A less expensive N5 paint is Liquitex BASICS 'Neutral Gray Value 5', but they only have the one neutral shade.

The link you gave about mixing grays does not create neutral grays, but rather is about getting a range of gray colors to make paintings more interesting. Most people consider a true neutral gray as being ugly and "dead" and artists prefer to have some color in their shadows.

As for getting a true neutral gray from a paint store reading a Kodak Neutral Gray card, you kind of get the luck of the draw. I have had such matches that were almost dead on to ones that missed it by almost a full Munsell level.

When color correcting paint manually don't forget that you can only make a paint darker by adding tint to it (unless the tint is lighter than the color). This is why there are no (or at least none I know of) pure N10 white paints. To get a N10 white literally every component of the paint (vehicle, binder and tint) would have to be either perfectly clear or N10 itself.
07-23-13 04:46 PM
mintgreen
Re: Munsell N5

Quote:
mechman wrote: View Post
c)You can use your i1pro to measure paint. We use a variety of programs to do it

Have you looked into the GTI Neutral gray paint? It's my understanding that that is what the pros use. It's a little bit expensive but if you're looking for accuracy, I'd think it should be there. I know that they make a N8 or a N7 paint IIRC. If you really want the darker gray as well, what I would do would be to add 'Mars Black' (Liquitex and Golden sell this in an artist acrylic) to the GTI paint until you get it as dark as you require - double checking for neutrality along the way.
I'll look into those programs but I think you have the wrong idea about which probe I have. I have this one:

http://www.xrite.com/product_overvie...Specifications

and I'm guessing you have this one:

http://www.xrite.com/i1basic-pro-2

I'm going to do some more research but I think i might be out of luck. Can you just hold your probe up to a wall then or do you need a sample on a piece of paper? And how far away do you hold it? And I'm guessing that ambient light isn't a factor.

I'm going to try one of the attachments again:

Attachment 43203

As for GTI that looks very helpful thanks, I can get it in N8 in the UK, I'll do more digging though to see if I can get N7. Wouldn't have guessed you could mix artist paint with wall paint successfully
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