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  Topic Review (Newest First)
03-06-14 05:13 PM
Harpmaker
Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Quote:
Plasma George wrote: View Post
Thanks for the info, but this has to scare us right ? Didn't the old BW have a spot on color balance when you blended BB and AAA ?
Stick with me while I explain my answer to this which is "No, it doesn't scare us" and "Yes, if you got the same BB color as Mech the mix would be VERY color-neutral. It doesn't scare us because we can now make BWU™ mixes that use base paints from pure white down to who knows how dark; I made a few small samples using a N5 paint and the results look promising! The problem with using a "paint name" such as PPG 'Bermuda Beige' is that sometimes the paint the store gives you can be quite far from the paint color that was used to color-balance the mix. House paints just don't have the color control to make sure ALL cans of paint are exactly the same color. That is the reason we try to get the base color that makes the most color-neutral mix, think of it as a "fudge factor" that lets a base work even if it is off-color a bit from where it should be.

Quote:
I right now have a Universal Gray screen, but crave darker blacks. my Samsung A800 has a new bulb waiting to go in.
So you're suggesting go for the new BW, and step down to the darker Veil ?....or step even darker to Dover or Granite ?

Not sure what Base to use with the new AAA-F, which I already ordered.

00NN 37/000 . . . "Granite Gray" [N6.7] - 162 162 161 - 66.62 -0.02 -0.28
00NN 45/000 . . . "Dover Grey" [N7.3] - 175 176 175 - 71.73 -0.04 -0.28
00NN 53/000 . . . "Veil" [N7.8] - 190 190 189 - 76.99 -0.02 -0.11
00NN 62/000 . . . "Universal Gray" [N8.3] - 206 206 205 - 82.83 -0.21 -0.37
To get darker blacks you would have to go with a darker gray base than 'Universal Gray'. If you would use 'Veil' as the base with the new AAA-F you would get a paint the same color as the original BW™.

As for how adding new AAA-F to other gray base paints affects the final mix, this is something we need to do, but Mech and I have both had other things to do. Mech has just been busy with things that life has thrown at him and I have had family health issues to deal with. In our limited testing so far we have found that adding new AAA-F to any neutral gray paint in the standard 4:1 ratio (4 parts base paint to 1 part AAA-F) will produce a color that does meet our neutrality standards (which means the color is more neutral than most gray commercial screens or paint mixes).
03-06-14 01:17 PM
Plasma George
Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
The new AAA-F will still change the color of a base paint, but it is WAY less than the old AAA-F.
Thanks for the info, but this has to scare us right ? Didn't the old BW have a spot on color balance when you blended BB and AAA ?

I right now have a Universal Gray screen, but crave darker blacks. my Samsung A800 has a new bulb waiting to go in.
So you're suggesting go for the new BW, and step down to the darker Veil ?....or step even darker to Dover or Granite ?

Not sure what Base to use with the new AAA-F, which I already ordered.

00NN 37/000 . . . "Granite Gray" [N6.7] - 162 162 161 - 66.62 -0.02 -0.28
00NN 45/000 . . . "Dover Grey" [N7.3] - 175 176 175 - 71.73 -0.04 -0.28
00NN 53/000 . . . "Veil" [N7.8] - 190 190 189 - 76.99 -0.02 -0.11
00NN 62/000 . . . "Universal Gray" [N8.3] - 206 206 205 - 82.83 -0.21 -0.37
03-05-14 09:28 PM
Harpmaker
Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Quote:
Plasma George wrote: View Post
I don't mean to bring back an old thread, but I'm trying to understand the new BW bersus old BW. I've done 10+ screens of the old, mixed with the Beige paint and watched the combination come to a beautiful gray with aluminum flakes to make the contrast I now crave.

New BW, we're adding the same color AAA to a Gray..... How does that combination bring us to the same BW Gray when we needed Beige as the base ?
Createx started using a different aluminum in their AAA-F to decrease the chances of the paint reacting if it received too much agitation during shipping. The new aluminum is actually coated with a clear substance that prevents anything from chemically reacting with it. One of the unforeseen results was that that coating also changed the way AAA-F reacted when mixed with other paints. The new AAA-F will still change the color of a base paint, but it is WAY less than the old AAA-F.

Quote:
Can I expect the same results from the old BW screens ?
I'm running a 135" screen, with Universal Gray cause it was temporary, but now it's a permanent setup.
Thanks
We have not done enough testing of the new AAA-F to specifically guarantee that Black Widow Ultra™ (which uses the new AAA-F) will give the exact same results as the old BW™ did, but that is at the head of our "To Do" list. In the small samples I have tested for color the new aluminum IS still working.

The new AAA-F seems to have smaller aluminum flakes than the old so sparkles in the screen mix are not there unless the paint is wet and you look really close. This is actually a good thing and now that the new AAA-F doesn't affect the color as much means that we can make BWU ™ mixes in many more shades of gray than was possible with the old BW™.
03-05-14 05:25 PM
Plasma George
Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Quote:
Harpmaker wrote: View Post
The original BW™ mix NEEDED a color-corrected base paint so the final mix would be neutral gray; that base color turned out to be a pinkish beige. The new AAA-F doesn't need a strong color-corrected base paint since the aluminum in it has been coated to not react with the paint; a regular neutral gray will work fine.
I don't mean to bring back an old thread, but I'm trying to understand the new BW bersus old BW. I've done 10+ screens of the old, mixed with the Beige paint and watched the combination come to a beautiful gray with aluminum flakes to make the contrast I now crave.

New BW, we're adding the same color AAA to a Gray..... How does that combination bring us to the same BW Gray when we needed Beige as the base ?
Can I expect the same results from the old BW screens ?
I'm running a 135" screen, with Universal Gray cause it was temporary, but now it's a permanent setup.
Thanks
01-04-14 11:22 AM
Yiannis1970
Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Grau 20 is a N8 meanwhile Grau 15 a N7 gray paint. Both of them are extremely neutral and after mixing the result is a perfect N7.5.

Finish matte, of course.
01-04-14 08:17 AM
parking spot
Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

@Harpmaker
Thanks for the additional info!
480ml AAA(new) arrived today. But other stuff keeps me busy, so no base paint yet.

I found some paint-dealers within my reach wich sell custom-color paint with RAL, NCS, Sikkens (also a akzo nobel brand) & Sigma input-codes.


In case they all can't match the Glidden-code but only NCS - is there a NCS (maybe, but not a accurate match?) or even RAL-code (i think not) for 00NN 53/000?
Maybe NCS S 2500-N? But that's N7.6 instead of N7.8 (Veil), correct?




I'll get in contact to see wich dealer looks most promising. :-)


@Yiannis1970
Thanks for the hint! Do you know what name the small Caparol containers had exactly? Maybe a photo?
01-02-14 04:40 AM
Yiannis1970
Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Quote:
parking spot wrote: View Post


I know Caparol sells in germany, but i'm not sure if i can find a shop wich sells smaller amounts of paints with "Grau 15"/"Grau 20". Usually it's 2,5l minimum i think, which would be way to much just for testing. Will ask around.
Hello!! I believe you will find available 0.7L containers, such as these i used.
01-01-14 09:49 PM
Harpmaker
Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Quote:
parking spot wrote: View Post
Hi again,

happy new year and thanks for your answers!

I'll get 480ml of new-formula AAA this week.

Maybe i can get some of the grey paint in the next few days, so the testing can begin.

To be honest, i'm still unsure which paint to get. But your information should be helpful narrowing it down. More questions to come. :-)


I know Caparol sells in germany, but i'm not sure if i can find a shop wich sells smaller amounts of paints with "Grau 15"/"Grau 20". Usually it's 2,5l minimum i think, which would be way to much just for testing. Will ask around.

Another question:
What about the type of paint? Original Black widow was based on latex paint, right? (maybe the international naming differences are a little confusing)
I read that some fellow users from germany used dispersion paint (matte). (for exampe this here
Is it possible that now with BW Ultra, which only needs neutral grey, it's not that critical to have the exact same type of paint as with the original (with the previously required exact beige color which was needed)? Or is that a wrong assumption?
The main thing is that whatever base paint you use MUST be water-based and not solvent-based or oil-based. The "latex" thing isn't important and I get the feeling that "latex" is a paint term used in North America only, but it is essentially the same as vinyl paints in England and the dispersion paints you talk of. "Latex" paints have nothing to do with latex rubber. Yeah, it's strange.

The original BW™ mix NEEDED a color-corrected base paint so the final mix would be neutral gray; that base color turned out to be a pinkish beige. The new AAA-F doesn't need a strong color-corrected base paint since the aluminum in it has been coated to not react with the paint; a regular neutral gray will work fine.

Quote:
What i could get in a timely manner from a DIY warehouse or paint dealer is standard-good quality matte "dipsersion paint" mixed by their machine in my chosen color.
We have almost all german DIY stores around (bauhaus, hornbach, obi, max bahr) as well as some smaller paint dealers. Will check starting tomorrow.

If this would be worth a shot for testing - what exact color code/system should i tell them? (orig. black widow had the beige ncs code).
What color system do your paint stores use? RAL? Basically, tell them you need a true neutral gray paint with as little (preferably no) Chroma or Hue. Also find out if they can match Glidden or Sherwin-Williams colors in their paint.

Also try this German site for Akzo Nobel to see if you can get one of their paints. They should be able to match the Dulux color 00NN 53/000 clouded slate 2, grey steel 2 which is a color for making a N7.5 BW Ultra™.

Quote:
while only needing neutral grey should i go with simple rgb code 185 185 185 or is there something else which is more suited as input for a standard paint mixing machine?
No tinting (color mixing) machine I know of can use RGB values, which is a real shame. Unless you have a national paint color system like NCS or RAL then each paint manufacturer uses their own tinting formula system.

Quote:
(maybe some slightly different code as the "veil" color code? which i don't even know which color system it is.
That is a Glidden paint color name. The number that goes with it (00NN 53/000) is used by Dulux as well (and I hope other Akzo Nobel paint brands).

Quote:
The "veil" code converted to rgb is 184 184 182 or is it 190 190 189 as mentioned in your thread here?)
Referring to our Sticky thread on neutral grays, the N value given is determined by the numeric code part of the name and the RGB and CIELAB values are from a sample of the paint we have gotten and measured. As you can tell they don't match perfectly. Going by the numeric code (the number is the Y value in the XYZ color space) the RGB would be 192, 192, 192.

Quote:
Please bear eith me. thanks for your patience
No problem!
01-01-14 08:43 PM
parking spot
Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Hi again,

happy new year and thanks for your answers!

I'll get 480ml of new-formula AAA this week.

Maybe i can get some of the grey paint in the next few days, so the testing can begin.

To be honest, i'm still unsure which paint to get. But your information should be helpful narrowing it down. More questions to come. :-)


I know Caparol sells in germany, but i'm not sure if i can find a shop wich sells smaller amounts of paints with "Grau 15"/"Grau 20". Usually it's 2,5l minimum i think, which would be way to much just for testing. Will ask around.

Another question:
What about the type of paint? Original Black widow was based on latex paint, right? (maybe the international naming differences are a little confusing)
I read that some fellow users from germany used dispersion paint (matte). (for exampe this here
Is it possible that now with BW Ultra, which only needs neutral grey, it's not that critical to have the exact same type of paint as with the original (with the previously required exact beige color which was needed)? Or is that a wrong assumption?



What i could get in a timely manner from a DIY warehouse or paint dealer is standard-good quality matte "dipsersion paint" mixed by their machine in my chosen color.
We have almost all german DIY stores around (bauhaus, hornbach, obi, max bahr) as well as some smaller paint dealers. Will check starting tomorrow.

If this would be worth a shot for testing - what exact color code/system should i tell them? (orig. black widow had the beige ncs code).
while only needing neutral grey should i go with simple rgb code 185 185 185 or is there something else which is more suited as input for a standard paint mixing machine? (maybe some slightly different code as the "veil" color code? which i don't even know which color system it is. The "veil" code converted to rgb is 184 184 182 or is it 190 190 189 as mentioned in your thread here?)


Please bear eith me. thanks for your patience
12-31-13 06:36 PM
Harpmaker
Re: Black Widow Ultra suggestions/help

Quote:
parking spot wrote: View Post
Which paint and color should i get to get a result wich is as similar as possible to the classic Black widow (Non-Ultra) mix? I'm from germany. Any suggestions?

Thank you and happy new year!
Welcome to HTS!

Yiannis is much more familiar with the brands of paints that are available in Europe so he is giving you good info on paint color and brand. I know we have had people make BW™ screens (old version) in Germany successfully before, but I don't remember the paint they used... my bad. I do know that many paint brands outside the U.S. can be made is Glidden colors since Glidden paint is made by PPG Industries that has manufacturing in 70 countries (including Germany ). One of the paints in Germany is Sigma Coatings. The Glidden color 00NN 53/000 . . . "Veil" will give you the color of the original Black Widow™ with or without adding the new AAA-F, but adding the AAA-F will increase the gain of the mix a bit.
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