Shiva Tapped Horn - Page 2 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #11 of 166 Old 01-25-10, 07:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Shiva Tapped Horn

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Kevin Haskins wrote: View Post
If you have observed the forums for any length of time things go in and out of fashion on a regular basis. ;-)
Interesting you should mention that as there is a thread at AVS asking about the same thing; see my comments in post #6.

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Kevin Haskins wrote: View Post
I'd be willing to offer a contest for the best horn design based upon a Shiva-X2 though. Winner gets a free driver. How is that for incentive?

I'd have to set out some guidelines.... maybe people can have some input here. I'd say we limit enclosure size and shape to fit within some pre-determined footprint and that the bandwidth has to at least be usable to 15hz in-room.
Sounds good, and maybe some fun to design.
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Kevin Haskins wrote: View Post
From your model I think you would be pretty close with that design.
In room, especially a basement room, I'm pretty sure it would do it. But as it's not my design, should it win, the driver should go to the guys who did the hard work. Or auctioned for charity.

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Kevin Haskins wrote: View Post
What do you think of that idea?

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
I'll see what I can come up with that improves upon what I've posted so far.
Post the footprint specs, and I'll get to work. However, would height be an issue? A tall single fold TH similar in design to Erik's 15" version, though it takes a lot of volume actually doesn't intrude as much as some by not taking much floor space. In a dedicated, custom designed theatre room several designs like this could even be disguised as support columns and placed at anti-nodes.
(back RH corner)
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post #12 of 166 Old 01-25-10, 07:45 PM
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Re: Shiva Tapped Horn

Quote:
Kevin Haskins wrote: View Post
If you have observed the forums for any length of time things go in and out of fashion on a regular basis. ;-)

I'd be willing to offer a contest for the best horn design based upon a Shiva-X2 though. Winner gets a free driver. How is that for incentive?

I'd have to set out some guidelines.... maybe people can have some input here. I'd say we limit enclosure size and shape to fit within some pre-determined footprint and that the bandwidth has to at least be usable to 15hz in-room. From your model I think you would be pretty close with that design.

What do you think of that idea?

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
I likes. to bad I never designed a horn load sub before.
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post #13 of 166 Old 01-26-10, 02:00 PM
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Re: Shiva Tapped Horn

Sounds like an interesting challenge. I may just play with the Shiva tonight.

aduljr. I've never designed one either, but there is always a first time.

Kevin. I have two questions for you.

1. When I look at the fr graph I see a sub that will do maybe 18Hz in room, but I have no real experience to draw on. To me, the drop off below 20Hz is too steep to get much extension. What am I not seeing?

2. The top end looks to be limited on this design. You get a 5db dip at 70Hz and a huge spike at 80Hz. Even with cabinet loss attenuating peaks and dips, I see issues at 80Hz and above. Does this design need to be crossed at somewhere around 50Hz?

One final comment on horns vs other designs. There seems to be a major cost benefit to a horn loaded design: 1/2 the cost or less for the driver, 1/2 the cost for the amp, greatly reduced electrical usage.

I would love to build a sub around the MX 18 or 21, but I just don't have the $1000+ (CDN) to do so. $400-500 to reach 15Hz (vs the 20Hz of my current sub) seems like a manageable price. The trade-off is a silly amount of space, but given the interior design of my HT - early mancave - it would fit right in.
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post #14 of 166 Old 01-26-10, 05:55 PM
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Re: Shiva Tapped Horn

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fredk wrote: View Post
Sounds like an interesting challenge. I may just play with the Shiva tonight.

aduljr. I've never designed one either, but there is always a first time.

Kevin. I have two questions for you.

1. When I look at the fr graph I see a sub that will do maybe 18Hz in room, but I have no real experience to draw on. To me, the drop off below 20Hz is too steep to get much extension. What am I not seeing?
It is just speculation on my part. You won't know how low it will go in-room unless you specify placement and actually measure it with the boundaries, corners etc...

Quote:

2. The top end looks to be limited on this design. You get a 5db dip at 70Hz and a huge spike at 80Hz. Even with cabinet loss attenuating peaks and dips, I see issues at 80Hz and above. Does this design need to be crossed at somewhere around 50Hz?
Once again I don't know. It is just a simulation and I don't know how accurate HR models the actual results. You might be able to acoustically damp some of those ripples or they may be swamped by the room issues. The bottom line is you would need to build and measure.
Quote:

One final comment on horns vs other designs. There seems to be a major cost benefit to a horn loaded design: 1/2 the cost or less for the driver, 1/2 the cost for the amp, greatly reduced electrical usage.

I would love to build a sub around the MX 18 or 21, but I just don't have the $1000+ (CDN) to do so. $400-500 to reach 15Hz (vs the 20Hz of my current sub) seems like a manageable price. The trade-off is a silly amount of space, but given the interior design of my HT - early mancave - it would fit right in.
Sure... there are situations that are right for any tool. That is the nature of the beast and every solution isn't going to be right for every person/build. It depends on what your build skills are, where your size constraints are and what you feel comfortable building. This goes for any sub, horn or otherwise but the larger you build it and the more dependent its output is upon room boundaries, the less flexibility you will have in maximizing the listening position FR. That is just the nature of the beast so you have to think through the complete solution.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
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post #15 of 166 Old 01-26-10, 10:08 PM
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Re: Shiva Tapped Horn

This sounds like a cool contest Kevin. Set out some guidelines for the enclosure size externally and maybe a desired bandwidth?

I would like to note that from what I've seen so far the resonances in these horns are overstated because the enclosure is assumed to be unobtainium strength and completely rigid with no losses. They are still there, but the magnitude is decreased from that shown. How much is the question.
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post #16 of 166 Old 01-26-10, 11:50 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Shiva Tapped Horn

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fredk wrote: View Post
1. When I look at the fr graph I see a sub that will do maybe 18Hz in room, but I have no real experience to draw on. To me, the drop off below 20Hz is too steep to get much extension. What am I not seeing?
It's about 30dB/oct, same as most PR subs.

Quote:
fredk wrote: View Post
2. The top end looks to be limited on this design. You get a 5db dip at 70Hz and a huge spike at 80Hz. Even with cabinet loss attenuating peaks and dips, I see issues at 80Hz and above. Does this design need to be crossed at somewhere around 50Hz?
It's a narrow band design. The peaks never seem to come out anywhere near what the sims say when others have built and measured their TH, especially double fold designs like these. I'd probably cross at 50-60, but I usually wouldn't cross a sub higher than that anyway.

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fredk wrote: View Post
I would love to build a sub around the MX 18 or 21, but I just don't have the $1000+ (CDN) to do so. $400-500 to reach 15Hz (vs the 20Hz of my current sub) seems like a manageable price. The trade-off is a silly amount of space, but given the interior design of my HT - early mancave - it would fit right in.
It would be huge, but because the depth need not be much more than the driver, a false wall behind a screen could house a pair of large designs.

Here's a thread with a deeper tuned unit to give some ideas.
Cinema Basshorn

Danley also sells some larger units;
TH221
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post #17 of 166 Old 01-27-10, 03:40 AM
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Re: Shiva Tapped Horn

Ill follow this thread with great interest

Source: SB Duet, Pre/Pro: Integra DHC-9.9, Speakers: SGR MT3FSL (active), Sub Amp: Crown K2, Subs: 2x SGR Maelstrom-X (125L Sealed)
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post #18 of 166 Old 01-27-10, 08:27 AM
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Re: Shiva Tapped Horn

I'll follow this thread with much interest.
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post #19 of 166 Old 01-27-10, 08:43 AM
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Re: Shiva Tapped Horn

This is borderline crazy, but fun to watch. Horns are typically used in pro-audio for large rooms.
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post #20 of 166 Old 01-27-10, 10:11 AM
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Re: Shiva Tapped Horn

One thing to note above is that those 2 sims are using different simulated spaces or at least appear to be. One is quarter space (Shiva) and the other is 1/8th space (LAB12), so they aren't directly comparable. Both of those (1/8th and 1/4 space)are overly optomistic IMHO too. If you were to compare to WinISD or Unibox, or any number of other simulation programs the default is 1/2 space or 2.0 x pi in HR. This chops either 6db or 12db off of the graphs shown above respsectively in order to compare to the usual graphs that you see of sealed and ported subs.

A9X,

Why use an inducter if the simulated differences with it are so small? Looks almost negligible in your sim?
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