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post #11 of 47 Old 09-22-11, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: sonosub planning phase

Now that ive pretty much settled on the dayton reference drivers and am picking up an ep4k today after work, ive had a likely-stupid idea. What if i built one sub with a very low tuning and one higher or even sealed for better musical performance? Im guessing one of these tuned really low is going to about knock me over, so what about building one for max SQ? Am i trying to solve a problem that doesnt exist? Ive never actually heard an llt setup, so i suppose i ought to build one first eh?

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post #12 of 47 Old 09-23-11, 09:25 AM
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Re: sonosub planning phase

tuning low does not adversely affect 'sound quality'. The only holdback people have with low tuned subs is that they don't make the effort to equalize frequency response with respect to their room and placement.

Having two identical subs will be easiest to integrate together because both will hit their physical limitations at the same time. Sound quality for a well designed subwoofer is almost solely determined by frequency response, and the room/sub placement/number of subs/EQ dictate that.

The only criteria to remember with respect to sound quality is to use 8+" of OC703 lining the endcaps, because a sonosub has a very tall dimension, which means it starts to approximate mass loaded transmission line behaviour due to internal standing waves. Use enough bass absorption to prevent the standing waves and you will be fine.

Some consider LLTs to be 'dry' sounding because they prefer 5-10db peaks centered around 40-80hz. If this is your preference instead of flat frequency response, then equalize appropriately. In my experience flat in-room is what sounds correct, but a hump sounds more like what people 'expect' from subwoofers. IMO your main speakers get 98.5% of the actual musical content, while a sub only adds fundamental 'weight'. But people build big subs and expect that to be 100% of the bass so they are dissapointed at how little a superior sub IE LLT, IB, TL Low Q sealed adds to the sound, and so they run their sub hot enough for it to dominate.

Your dual LLTs will be a lot more powerful, tactile, and transparent than your current Klipsch sub. They just won't have the same distortion and midbass peak, so it'll take some getting used to 'less perceived bass, yet more actual bass dynamics and depth'.

You'll either be unable to adjust, in which case you'll need to EQ more midbass, or you'll discover 'real bass' and realize that not only your old sub, bit your current mains, do not have natural bass reproduction.

Either way, you'll still get superior sound quality.
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post #13 of 47 Old 09-23-11, 09:47 AM Thread Starter
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Re: sonosub planning phase

Hmm, thanks for the perspective on that. Ive never had the opportunity to hear an llt, let alone subs that are flat in room. Ive heard big subs like the wilson audio "thors hammer" and i did notice that it was pretty much just lurking in the shadows rather than slamming your face into the ground on a constant basis.

As for the sq of an llt, ive heard some people say they thought lower tuning tends to make a sub "slower" whic i cant comment on, but i definately notice that some subs have muddier transients than others but ive never tied it to the tuning of the box.

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post #14 of 47 Old 09-23-11, 10:12 AM
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Re: sonosub planning phase

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Hmm, thanks for the perspective on that. Ive never had the opportunity to hear an llt, let alone subs that are flat in room. Ive heard big subs like the wilson audio "thors hammer" and i did notice that it was pretty much just lurking in the shadows rather than slamming your face into the ground on a constant basis.

As for the sq of an llt, ive heard some people say they thought lower tuning tends to make a sub "slower" whic i cant comment on, but i definately notice that some subs have muddier transients than others but ive never tied it to the tuning of the box.
A sub that produces 20hz tones is by defintion 'slower' than one that doesn't - it's a good thing!

On the other hand with respect to transient response, there's a few things that can affect perception....

An LLT can be flat anechoically at times, and placed in room that can lead to a rising response 6-10db/octave below 35hz or so. This is extra headroom your room is adding, so you need to EQ it down. Left alone it could sound bottom heavy.


Poor and/or strictly Corner placement, especially of a single sub rather than multiples, can lead to a room mode peak that os perceived as muddyness. i really feel multiple subs is 80% of getting good SQ

Insufficient Damping, or ringing inside the enclosure exiting via the vent and cone, can create reduced tightness. An LLT is actually overdamped and the low tune reduces group delay compared to the average vented sub!!!

Insufficiemt vent cross sectional area can lead to subliminal vent noises that affevt our percwption. As long as you build the vent as I specified you'll be free of vent compression.

All of the above said, I find bass muddyness to also be a main speakers problem more than sub. Poor cabinets, lack of bass traps, and poor vent tuning is something 90% of affordable commercial speakers have.
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post #15 of 47 Old 09-23-11, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: sonosub planning phase

Youve got a way of getting me excited about this!

One thing youve brought up which ive been meaning to ask about but i suspect i know the answer. My mains have built in powered "subs" with lfe inputs. Would it befit me to use these lfe inputs and equalize them along with the others?

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post #16 of 47 Old 09-23-11, 01:52 PM
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Re: sonosub planning phase

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Youve got a way of getting me excited about this!

One thing youve brought up which ive been meaning to ask about but i suspect i know the answer. My mains have built in powered "subs" with lfe inputs. Would it befit me to use these lfe inputs and equalize them along with the others?
It might be worth a shot, though it could get convoluted quickly. I don't consider the 8" drivers that some manufacturers call "subwoofers" to even qualify... they basically just make "noise"

The Dayton Reference drivers are optimized for some of the lowest distortion performance out there, so it feels kind of counter productive to add higher distortion drivers into the mix.
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post #17 of 47 Old 09-23-11, 02:07 PM Thread Starter
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Re: sonosub planning phase

Wow this phone messes up posting on this forum. Sorry about that.

I see what youre saying about the small drivers not doing much. These are 6.5" duals in slot loaded enclosures and the do seem so dig pretty deep for their size but they do make a lot of port noise at any kind of volume. Id obviously be running them at very low volume, just like the klipsh sub will be run. I suppose this will be something ill have to experiment with and figure out as i go.

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post #18 of 47 Old 09-23-11, 02:31 PM
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Re: sonosub planning phase

I'd definitely start with dialing in the two Dayton References first and foremost.

Who knows, in a few months you might be in the market for new mains
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post #19 of 47 Old 09-23-11, 02:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: sonosub planning phase

Idunnoooo!!!! Ive looked at building my next set but thats not really in the cards. Im willing to guess that the added dynamics of the subs will help the rest of the speakers out a bit. Ive been alerted to an alternate driver which i may be able to get a hold of. Ill keep on with the dayton design until i know for sure about this other driver though.

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post #20 of 47 Old 09-23-11, 02:55 PM
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Re: sonosub planning phase

Whatever you get, make sure it has low distortion and you get two!!!

As for mains, I dunnnooo... either.... maybe

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