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The REAL Scam in Audio

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real scam
46K views 414 replies 29 participants last post by  lcaillo 
#1 ·
Anyone who has been reading the thread here on audio cables must have noticed the fireworks on display. Apparently some shacksters feel that paying a lot of money for high end cables is a scam. I think that is getting it backwards. Think for a moment, if you manufactured speakers let's say why would you want your customers to make their $2000 speakers sound like a $3000 speaker by simply changing speaker cables? That makes 0 sense if you manufacture speakers, of course you want them to buy the $3000 speaker.

Why would you want a customer make your $2000 processor sound like a $4000 processor by changing the power cord and interconnects? Wouldn't you rather they get the $4000 processor?

The real scam in audio is spending huge $$$ on component upgrades when a simple cable upgrade could get you most of the way there for relatively little money.

Then when I see people promote this scam here as a way of being intelligent I have to wonder where that comes from. Has the component manufacturing industry really been this effective on making people spend big $$$ on new components? Apparently yes.

OK, now you want data right? According to audio reviewer Thomas Campbell:
" interconnects and speaker cables make the largest per-dollar difference of any component or accessory. "

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue7/signal.htm

I got news for you, you don't have to take any of this on faith. Nearly all of these cable vendors provide risk free in home auditions.

So, stop being scammed by the component manufacturers on spending big $$$ on components. Get good components and unleash 100% of their potential with some decent cables. Remember, interconnects and speaker cables make the largest per dollar difference of ANY component or accessory. Just take the time to test risk free and prove it to yourself. :smile:
 
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#2 ·
So you would have us believe that there is a conspiracy in the group of manufacturers that purposefully ship components with subpar powers cables to upsell us into more expensive components?
Thomas Campbell is wrong. Room treatments are easily more beneficial than cables. And what about properly setting up your speakers? Even if candy coated magic fairy bling time continuum bending cable DID exist, they would never add more than setup and treatments. To suggest cables are more beneficial is ludicrous. I think speakers make the biggest difference myself.



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#4 ·
I think Thomas Campbell is spot on, and if you believe that speakers make the biggest difference I encourage you to buy bigger and better ones for lots of $$$. I will simply upgrade my speaker cables ( about $150 tops) and get a HUGE upgrade for relatively peanuts.

As for what you choose to believe why not post some data on the cables you tested? If you don't know what to test try reading this if you didn't like the other article:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1003/loudspeakercableshootout.htm
 
#6 ·
Another Scam That Ticks Me Off

Here is another scam. Beware of the cable company that claims to "save" you money. Look at the shoddy construction of this Monoprice cable and ask yourself, does it make any sense to partner this type of quality in a system costing thousands of dollars? There is a BIG difference between buying low price cables and just buying low quality merchandise. I think you need to compare at least 3 different brands of cables in various quality ranges before deciding what to go with, just like you would a speaker or turntable.

 
#277 ·
Re: Another Scam That Ticks Me Off

Here is another scam. Beware of the cable company that claims to "save" you money. Look at the shoddy construction of this Monoprice cable and ask yourself, does it make any sense to partner this type of quality in a system costing thousands of dollars? There is a BIG difference between buying low price cables and just buying low quality merchandise. I think you need to compare at least 3 different brands of cables in various quality ranges before deciding what to go with, just like you would a speaker or turntable.

https://youtu.be/43mzUfZMSvY
I have a Marantz 8801 processor hooked up to an Anthem Statement P5 multichannel amplifier and a smaller Outlaw for my surround backs and I use Blue Jeans Cable LC-1s for interconnects. The LC-1s are solid with a great build and the system sounds fantastic. At the end of it all the soul of the system is the Marantz coupled to the Anthem.
 
#19 ·
In order to determine if this is a joke you need to audition some new cables yourself. Please post your results. I have found it funny that so many people have so many opinions yet never actually tested anything. Wasting $$$ on expensive components is not a joke so please test yourself and post.
 
#10 ·
Thanks. I am happy, and don't need to prove anything to myself. But you were implying that OEM's were shipping crummy power cables so they could up sell people into more expensive gear. That's the part I'm asking you to provide some proof about.


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#11 ·
Here's a very involved test of power cables. I will admit, it could be argued as not being perfect. However to the claims of BIG improvements, the results were around 49%. The same as flipping a coin! I've read all the links you have posted. I'd love to hear your impressions of this test.


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http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

And the conspiracy? Conjecture I say. But still waiting. It's a big claim.
 
#15 ·
I think this is an excellent test and thank you for posting. The point is someone actually took the time to listen and compare for themselves. I encourage everyone to get 3 or 4 power cords and see for themselves if it makes a difference in their system. I would never make a purchase based solely on a test or a review, only an in home audition. If I were testing power cords I would begin testing on my source componenent, then test it on my pre-amp, and finally my amp. You can see the editors own conclusion about this test:
The test was a grand and noble experiment at best and a bust at worst. Make of it what you will.

I consider any testing you do in your own home a grand and noble experiment and would encourage everyone to do so under whatever test conditions makes them happy.
 
#12 ·
Wow just wow. If witchdoctor isn't being paid, as he says, for this sort of "promotion" he really should....he's repeating the mantra of the cable charlatans ad nauseum and if anyone benefits from someone taking him seriously, they do. Should at least get a cut....just sayin'.

I know in other threads he's been told by speaker designers and manufacturers this is a bunch of nonsense but he persists! Don Quixote would be proud!
 
#13 ·
I don't think witchdoctor is employed by a cabling company or he would have started inserting links to their site in his signature.

However, his "Expert" Thomas Campbell. Well, I have never heard of him until today.

So statements that say
OK, now you want data right? According to audio reviewer Thomas Campbell:
" interconnects and speaker cables make the largest per-dollar difference of any component or accessory. "
Are dubious at best! (data? there is no data in his review...)

I have emailed asking for more information on the claims Thomas has made and am still awaiting a response. :waiting:
 
#14 ·
This discussion like many others really serves no point as not everyone believes in both sides, but rather, like most other subjects, there are indeed least two sides. For reasons unknown to me, the non believers find posts that they can unload on while the believers find themselves in the middle of arguments. This is not just for this posts but for most anything else...even the question do all amplifiers sound the same to which the results are pretty close to 50% of the participant voting yes and 50% voting no.

I think I can find as many positive reviews of cable differences as others can find in stating there is no difference...so who is right ? Everyone in that everyone is different and has different priorities. The only trouble that rears its ugly head is those that state firmly that no differences exist without having ever actually tried to hear the differences.

I tend not to believe that cable differences are huge and are more important that changing speakers or room set up but hey that's me. Speakers are in my book the largest contributors to the sound we hear in any given room, period. We must remember however, that everything is built to a price point and not all units have the greatest crossover components or drivers or even internal wiring but all that can be changed should anyone feel the need. I did on my stuff and I changed it, making for a much better sounding speaker.

Thus for me, cables "Can" make a difference, but these differences are small and entirely system and listener dependent. But I believe that everything makes a difference, its just that I or others may not be able to hear the differences. Again, just my belief using my ears and knowledge of music. I remember years ago owning some Hafler gear, amp and preamp that I built from a kit and loving those pieces a good bit. That is until I discovered a company in St. Louis, Musical Concepts, that offered upgrades to either or both units. I bit the bullet and bought the upgrade to the pre amp, which included new board components, caps and such as well as a new power supply and spent a couple days installing everything. Once done I plugged it in and was shocked by the wonderful difference. I had the listening crew over and they were a bit shocked as well just to show it was not just me.

I dont know where I am going with this except why beat up on a guy who believes something, after all he is not running for president :rofl:
Just post a "Hmmm" or something and move along....and then read my signature...it is very true.
 
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#16 ·
Are You Just Mad?

I would be mad if I were soaked by component manufacturers on an endless journey of ugradeitis only to find out I could have achieved the same or better SQ for much less $$$ with wise cable choices.

The ONLY solution is to first become a trained listener to reduce the placebo effect (meaning you don't want to hear a difference therefore you can't). Next you have to get 3 or 4 different types of cables and perform an in home audition yourself. Please post your results.
 
#21 ·
Re: Are You Just Mad?

I would be mad if I were soaked by component manufacturers on an endless journey of ugradeitis only to find out I could have achieved the same or better SQ for much less $$$ with wise cable choices.

The ONLY solution is to first become a trained listener to reduce the placebo effect (meaning you don't want to hear a difference therefore you can't). Next you have to get 3 or 4 different types of cables and perform an in home audition yourself. Please post your results.

Herein lies the rub.. I have at least four different speaker cables that I have been testing over the last six months or so as well as for different interconnect cables that have been tested over the same period of time. I can honestly say that I have heard differences and I have my favorites and my not so favorites how ever none of them are truly bad.
My personal problem lies in my thin-skinned nature which tends to preclude me from posting reviews that may in fact draw the kind of negative attention that has been seen here in these posts.

When I was young and brash I used to write a good number of reviews for several audio journals however because they were print there was no immediate feedback from the nonbelievers trying to convince me that my elevator did not reach the top floor. On occasion the following months magazine would have one or two letters that may have differing opinions although they did not usually get into the very negative because this was after all an audio file drag. Nevertheless I will go ahead and try to put something together at least to start by later this week should you wish to read it.

:dontknow:
 
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#17 ·
Look Behind the Curtain

Here is another way component manufacturers get you to part with big $$$. Go to any audio show and visit a booth. You will proudly see speakers, amps, etc on display. What you won't see (unless you look) is that these components have been connected with audiophile cables. The manufacturer neglects to mention that his component only sounds this good because it is being supported with $ cables. Then you get the thing home and wonder why your shiny new amp doesn't sound like the demo--- duh!

Next time you go to a show ask what cables they are using and what they cost. understand if you want the same performance you need to add that amount to your purchase price.
 
#29 ·
Jack! I do enjoy reading your posts and I enjoy your eloquence. I suppose I'm like Lou in that I used to believe certain things. I am no longer burdened by these. I have tested many things over the years and that is exactly how I came to my beliefs.


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#35 ·
Thanks I'll check those links later.
Still wondering. Why if the impact is SO BIG, why they only saw 49%?


And...
Also, I haven't seen you back the claim of OEM's and upselling with shoddy power cables other than conjecture. You may well be right, but someone new to this hobby who may be easily influenced should have at least something tangible to base a decision on. And don't tell me they should audition a cable for themselves.


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#36 ·
Thanks I'll check those links later.
Still wondering. Why if the impact is SO BIG, why they only saw 49%?
Well in order to find out posting isn't going to help. Try a cable and listen for yourself. I can't keep going in circles about this. I think we both disagree and since you are happy I wish you well.:smile:
 
#37 ·
You're right. We do have a difference of opinion. What I'm getting at is that you have made a really big claim, and will not substantiate it. If I claimed to you I could fly, you'd want a video. No? So, I'm look for some clarity. So...

I haven't seen you back the claim of OEM's and upselling with shoddy power cables other than conjecture. You may well be right, but someone new to this hobby who may be easily influenced should have at least something tangible to base a decision on. And don't tell me they should audition a cable for themselves.
And also if claims are SO big, and SO dramatic, it should be as easy as choosing blue vs orange, to a higher level of accuracy than flipping a coin. I want YOUR opinion as an advocate of subject testing why this is so low.


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#40 ·
I want YOUR opinion as an advocate of subject testing why this is so low.





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I want your opinion of a cable you tested. You go first:smile:[/QUOTE]


No. I've asked you first at least 4 times.
And...
Also, I haven't seen you back the claim of OEM's and upselling with shoddy power cables other than conjecture. You may well be right, but someone new to this hobby who may be easily influenced should have at least something tangible to base a decision on. And don't tell me they should audition a cable for themselves.


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#42 ·
Don't make purchase decisions based on data, use data to shop. You need to create your own personal experience through an in home risk free audition. If you want to know what to audition first just ask and I will try to help. Here is an example but don't limit yourself to one brand:

Read this review:
http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-a...path-rca-and-ultra-speaker-cables-review.html

Review their data (specs are at the bottom of the page):

http://www.svsound.com/products/soundpath-rca-audio-cable

Request an in home 45 day audition and post your results for everyone to learn.
 
#41 ·
He also has not backed his claim that there is a measurable difference. I want to see two plots on one REW graph showing the before and after. If the difference is heard there will also be a different showing in REW. It's really that simple.
 
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#44 ·
No data there either. There is plenty of data out there that show there are differences in the way speakers sound. So I can go out and listen then pick my preference. I have yet to see any data to show that cables make any difference.

I don't think I'd place those SVS cables in the same high end group of cables that this discussion is about. They look like good quality cables at a fairly reasonable price.
 
#45 · (Edited)
And THAT is what makes this topic so interesting. The price of those SVS cables makes you wonder how they can compete but you need to find out by listening.
case in point, I was using a $1500 digital cable and a vendor offered me an audition of his $150 cable. I liked the guy so accepted but "knew" it couldn't compete. I'll bet you can already guess the ending. The $1500 went on Ebay and I had money left over to buy the new cable.

BTW, the premise of this thread is that cables represent the biggest bang for the buck upgrade in audio. Now would YOU believe that claim if I provided data? i hope not. You need to test things yourself and yes, my experience has been that SQ improvements from cables are a lot cheaper than going out and replacing components (see post #34 and read all the links). But of course don't take my word for it, test!
 
#46 ·
Ok. I'll only ask one question at a time.
I haven't seen you back the claim of OEM's and upselling with shoddy power cables other than conjecture. You may well be right, but someone new to this hobby who may be easily influenced should have at least something tangible to base a decision on. And don't tell me they should audition a cable for themselves.


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#47 ·
Go to an audio show and observe the cables used by vendors. If you find any 10 cent a foot stuff please let me know. Not one vendor will tell you that to get your components to sound the same as their demo to buy the same cables they used. Hmmm, I wonder why?
Tag, now its your turn.

Why have you not posted anything about your own experience auditioning cables? Is it because you have none?
 
#48 ·
Actually I would believe that claim if you, or anyone for that matter, had actual data that proved they made a difference.

The price of those SVS cables in no way make me wonder how they compete, a quality cable at a reasonable price. There are many good quality cables out there for reasonable prices.

I don't see how they could possibly be the biggest bang for the buck if they make no difference.
 
#50 ·
Anyone who has been reading the thread here on audio cables must have noticed the fireworks on display. Apparently some shacksters feel that paying a lot of money for high end cables is a scam. I think that is getting it backwards. Think for a moment, if you manufactured speakers let's say why would you want your customers to make their $2000 speakers sound like a $3000 speaker by simply changing speaker cables? That makes 0 sense if you manufacture speakers, of course you want them to buy the $3000 speaker.

Why would you want a customer make your $2000 processor sound like a $4000 processor by changing the power cord and interconnects? Wouldn't you rather they get the $4000 processor?

The real scam in audio is spending huge $$$ on component upgrades when a simple cable upgrade could get you most of the way there for relatively little money.

Then when I see people promote this scam here as a way of being intelligent I have to wonder where that comes from. Has the component manufacturing industry really been this effective on making people spend big $$$ on new components? Apparently yes.

OK, now you want data right? According to audio reviewer Thomas Campbell:
" interconnects and speaker cables make the largest per-dollar difference of any component or accessory. "

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue7/signal.htm

I got news for you, you don't have to take any of this on faith. Nearly all of these cable vendors provide risk free in home auditions.

So, stop being scammed by the component manufacturers on spending big $$$ on components. Get good components and unleash 100% of their potential with some decent cables. Remember, interconnects and speaker cables make the largest per dollar difference of ANY component or accessory. Just take the time to test risk free and prove it to yourself. :http://s3.amazonaws.com/thumbnails.illustrationsource.com/huge.103.516926.JPGsmile:
Oh boy!!
 
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#54 ·
whitchdoctor wrote:

cables are a lot cheaper than going out and replacing components
I don't see a majority of shacksters replacing components expecting better sound (apart from amps, for more power to fully feed their speakers and allow them to preform their best). There are a few, but I think most of us replace equipment for new features. Like 4K, Atmos & better room correction. Cables don't factor into that. I've been using my Yamaha for 20+ years...it still works great. But I am getting a new one, only for the features that are available now. Will I buy new cables? Some because I have to (HDMI), but I will continue to use what I have where I can. Expensive cables are beautiful & it's nice to have nice things. But the price difference hasn't justified the expense for me. I would expect nearly 100% in blind testing and measureable results.

I think the quality of components today are very good. Many are limited by the amount of power needed to get the most out of our speakers. Thus external amps. Which brings us back to speakers & room treatments making the most substantial impact in performance. Just my $0.02.
 
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