Getting around the limitations of JavaSound on OS X - Page 9 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

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post #81 of 171 Old 02-28-14, 08:17 AM
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Re: Getting around the limitations of JavaSound on OS X

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Very interesting. Thanks
Hi, just to clarify, as I realized that earlier you said (I think) that you are using Mavericks - I'm not, still on ML.
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post #82 of 171 Old 03-04-14, 09:12 AM
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Re: Getting around the limitations of JavaSound on OS X

Howdy folks,

I've been summoned by a few users, and would like to wrap my head around what's going on here.

It sounds like people are having trouble exporting FuzzMeasure impulses into REW? What is the specific issue that is causing problems?

I'm looking at graphs that appear to include the distortion components (i.e. the "mini impulses" that appear to the left of the initial impulse response, decreasing in amplitude as you move further to the "left" of the initial impulse.) Those are totally normal in the context of swept sine measurements (and part of their power!)

Thanks!

Chris
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post #83 of 171 Old 03-04-14, 09:32 AM
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Re: Getting around the limitations of JavaSound on OS X

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…because FM is kinda withering on the vine because the developer is trying to make a living with his other (quite interesting) iapps.
Just a point of clarification here, if I may.

FuzzMeasure follows a much more glacial development schedule out of necessity right now. The "iapps" just happen to have opened the doors to my being able to hire some help over the past 6 months, and I hope that the effects of their sales will be apparent on FuzzMeasure's development in the coming months.

Building Capo has been an enlightening journey, as it drew on my FuzzMeasure experience to design and develop some advanced features in an otherwise non-advanced product segment. I'm revolutionizing a market that has been short on "fancy DSP technology." But Capo has also taught me some new tricks that I hope to bring to FuzzMeasure users in the near future.

From the outside, I know it looks like I've been saying that a lot, but I assure you that there has been more work happening than is apparent. For instance, the latest 3.3 update included a major audio engine revamp that was pulled in from my work on 4.0. It enabled multi-channel sweep outputs as well as fewer measurement issues with certain classes of audio devices. All of these are "invisible" improvements, but important ones nonetheless.

If all goes well with my next "iapps" release, I hope to add another full-time engineer to help me bring FuzzMeasure's next major release to market faster. I wish I could share more details, but I am truly excited about what the future holds for FuzzMeasure.

Chris
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post #84 of 171 Old 03-04-14, 09:36 AM
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Re: Getting around the limitations of JavaSound on OS X

Hi Chris, welcome! I sent you an email which is probably pertinent to this, although it may not be that apparent. The following will explain what I mean and the summary may be helpful to all readers. Do note the earlier post by Esprit though, saying exactly the same thing

For some time people have been successfully Exporting and Importing IR's between REW and FM.
For some time we have been able to use LineIn and SoundFlower to allow REW to function on the Mac's crippled version of Java.
A very similar workaround enabled the UMIK-1 to work with REW on Macs. Much thanks to the OP John Reekie here.

All of this has changed with the introduction of Mavericks.
I have never seen such a disastrous OS update before, in fact I have never seen an update which was negative in any way. Plse note that ProTools 11 users and probably others are having nightmares with Mavericks also.

Now on my iMac with Mavericks 10.9.2 installed:-
I cannot get the UMIK to function. MiniDSP are being very helpful, but ultimately I believe it will take a hardware change to 44.1K to make this device Java/Mac friendly.
On brief tests exporting from FM to REW the graphs are significantly different.

EDIT, Chris and I SimulTyping..... Is there an app for that?
Just to be fully clear. FuzzMeasure is a fully capable acoustic tool and works perfectly on Macs, including ALL interface types, and the onboard 1/O.
The UMIK-1 works perfectly with all normal Mac apps.
REW works perfectly using the Mac onboard I/O. This is of a perfectly acceptable quality for Acoustic Measurement. I have measured 20-20K on this iMac, with less than 0.1dB variation, and negligible distortion.


DD

Last edited by DanDan; 03-04-14 at 09:44 AM.
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post #85 of 171 Old 03-04-14, 09:43 AM
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Re: Getting around the limitations of JavaSound on OS X

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Now on my iMac with Mavericks 10.9.2 installed:-
I cannot get the UMIK to function. MiniDSP are being very helpful, but ultimately I believe it will take a hardware change to 44.1K to make this device Java/Mac friendly.
That seems rather drastic. If the device wants to operate at a better sample rate, it should! As long as it's a class-compliant USB hardware device, we should be OK. I'll be communicating with the miniDSP folks as well to ensure everything's behaving itself with FM as well.

Quote:
On brief tests exporting from FM to REW the graphs are significantly different.
Could you elaborate on this? You have to understand that a normalized impulse response will peak at 1.0 at the peak of the impulse itself. That won't necessarily normalize the ETC graphs or frequency response graphs.

That is, a peak of 1.0 (or 0 dBFS) in the time domain doesn't guarantee the same peak in the frequency domain. That's just not how the math works.

Anyway, examples of how exported impulses aren't coming across in REW would be helpful for me to explain this better here.

Chris
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post #86 of 171 Old 03-04-14, 09:50 AM
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Re: Getting around the limitations of JavaSound on OS X

We should get a room Chris! I haven't had time to repeat the quick Export/Import tests I did but I will.
I am not sure it is fully On Topic in this thread though. Perhaps another thread on the havoc which is being wreaked throughout the audio community by Mavericks?
Or a focus on the Java(sound)/Mac issue here, which I am convinced by the warning messages in REW, is a 44.1K thing.
IMO, 44.1K is the common FS for music and should be the primarily default in all software and hardware. As it stands 48K reigns.

I am 100% certain that the UMIK-1 and FuzzMeasure are working perfectly on Macs.

The UMIK-1 is a regular USB device, but this does not guarantee function with REW on Macs. REW also fails to function at anything other than 48K, although not always. REW also doesn't work even with class compliant interfaces which are more than 2 Channel USB, or Firewire of any size.
Getting around the limitations of JavaSound on OS X-48k-warning.png
DD

Last edited by DanDan; 03-04-14 at 10:04 AM.
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post #87 of 171 Old 03-04-14, 10:12 AM
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Re: Getting around the limitations of JavaSound on OS X

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I haven't had time to repeat the quick Export/Import tests I did but I will.
I'll stay tuned.

Quote:
I am not sure it is fully On Topic in this thread though. Perhaps another thread on the havoc which is being wreaked throughout the audio community by Mavericks?
I'm not familiar with much havoc from my end. CoreAudio is a fairly stable system that hasn't changed very much if at all over the past few years.

Quote:
I am 100% certain that the UMIK-1 and FuzzMeasure are working perfectly on Macs.
Glad to hear it. Honestly, as long as hardware works with CoreAudio it should work with FuzzMeasure trouble-free.

Quote:
The UMIK-1 is a regular USB device, but this does not guarantee function with REW on Macs. REW also fails to function at anything other than 48K, although not always. REW also doesn't work even with class compliant interfaces which are more than 2 Channel USB, or Firewire of any size.
DD
That's a real bummer, and I'm not sure who is at fault, as I'm not familiar with the matter.
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post #88 of 171 Old 03-04-14, 12:23 PM
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Rotten Apple

Chris, REW is a Java app. It works fine on PC's and I presume Linux machines etc. all of which implement Java as it's designers specify. Apple have not complied for a long time, thus the problems and the workaround of this thread.

DD
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post #89 of 171 Old 03-04-14, 12:33 PM
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Re: Rotten Apple

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DanDan wrote: View Post
Chris, REW is a Java app. It works fine on PC's and I presume Linux machines etc. all of which implement Java as it's designers specify. Apple have not complied for a long time, thus the problems and the workaround of this thread.

DD
For what it's worth, Java's runtime should be maintained by Oracle, and I believe they're the ones doing the work to make sure it runs well on PCs. I don't believe they put the same level of effort into maintaining it on OS X.

If I were to venture a guess, I'd say that whatever team is tasked with maintaining the OS X java runtime simply doesn't have the expertise or motivation to make the audio side work perfectly. I also use MATLAB which is java-based, and they have more than their fair share of issues with the runtime as well.

I think that, once upon a time, Apple used to have a hand in keeping the runtime up to date, but whether Apple simply doesn't care or Oracle isn't allowing them to maintain the runtime themselves is another story. To be honest, I don't think it's necessarily fair for Apple to be required to do this work. Ultimately Java is a technology product that promises cross-platform functionality, and hence the onus is on the Java folks to do whatever it takes to live up to their claims.

But that's just my own $0.02.
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post #90 of 171 Old 03-04-14, 12:53 PM
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Compatible

That's interesting Chris. However, to my knowledge, there are things in OSX treatment of Java which are not compatible with the Java specs. As the purpose of Java is to be a mulitplatform, ahem platform, surely it behoves all of OS's to comply with one central set of specs. I mean, it makes little sense to include Java compatibility in an OS, but leave out or disobey certain aspects. Windows and afaik Linux treat it with re (spec)t and REW works perfectly.

BTW, Chris and Bob, I have been trying some Export/Import tests. When I force both apps to run at the same Sample Rate, despite REW's protests, i.e. 48Khz the 32 Bit WAV Ex/Im seems to mostly work fine for most graphs. The only flaw I see is that the distortion pre-images are missing in REW. I am fairly sure these used to transfer across before Mavericks.
I will test further but will PM both of you with anything interesting as I believe this is a tad Off Topic.
I just wanted to reinstate the probability that capturing on FM and viewing in REW, on Macs seems still viable.
I expect the Distortion thing to be a small fix or perhaps some parameter I have overlooked.
DD
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