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post #21 of 32 Old 09-24-15, 02:53 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pro amp help needed

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Mike Edwards wrote: View Post
ahh, if you can get it in a trade. why NOT... one of those bridged for an HST 15 would be siiiiiiiiiick (although, if you can get an XLS-2500 why not get the HST 18 ??? not much more and give you a good chunk more output,)


from experience, Audessey does an OOOOOOOK job of setting eq on a sub, but NOWHERE near what REW and a minidsp can do. especially when boosting the low end (which a sealed sub will most likely need)... it's not a big deal, you can pick one up down the road if you're wanting too, but a minidsp or a the dsp in an inuke will trash X32 in terms of it's eq ability for subs.. X32 really shines on speakers, but with subs it's kinda "meh"
Well mainly because I'm trying to limit the box size to around 3 cubic feet and I think the HST-18 wants more like 4.

Reason being that when I build the second sub as an endtable with the subdownfiring, I dont want it to have to be super tall or really wide and fat where it looks like its something AS an endtable, rather than just an endtable that has a cabinet (going to likely add false doors to it)

Plus the price difference is just something I dont know if I can do (I'm beyond stretching my budget as it stands)... but I will do some modeling just to see...

And the other thing is I had some really nice rings made for the inside of the box that will fit a 15" driver. Its basically a metal ring with threaded inserts attached so it ensures a really tight seal.... So those would be nice to use on the 15. I dont know if I could get a 18" fabbed.
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post #22 of 32 Old 09-24-15, 02:53 PM
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Re: Pro amp help needed

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Mike:

Between the three amps listed below what would you go with knowing its going to be in the same room as the speakers (for noise purposes) and why.

XLS 2500: 2400 x 1 @ 4 ohms bridged, 775 x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo
XLS 1500: 1550 x 1 @ 4 ohms bridged, 525 x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo
iNuke 6000: (not bridgeable), 1200 x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo
iNuke 6000 DSP: (not bridgeable), 1200 x 2 @ 4 ohms stereo
These power ratings comfortably exceed the 1800 watts provided by the 15 ampere circuit found in most homes. Either the ratings are some type of "peak" output or 20 ampere circuits are necessary. This assumes that only a single amplifier is on a circuit. No voice coil found in any subwoofer ever created could absorb this kind of power for very long, but that is another topic...

Last edited by rkeman; 09-24-15 at 07:23 PM.
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post #23 of 32 Old 09-24-15, 03:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pro amp help needed

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These power rating comfortably exceed the 1800 watts provided by the 15 ampere circuit found in most homes. Either the ratings are some type of "peak" output or 20 ampere circuits are necessary. This assumes that only a single amplifier is on a circuit. No voice coil found in any subwoofer ever created could absorb this kind of power for very long, but that is another topic...
I'd hazard a guess they are peak rating. And I'm under no assumption I'd be sending that much wattage to a sub during anything like my normal listening.

I'm going to be playing with the XLS 1500 tomorrow for a short time just to see how it compares to my Dayton.

So this should be fun....
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post #24 of 32 Old 09-24-15, 05:29 PM
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Re: Pro amp help needed

Will be good to see how your "audition," goes. I was looking at picking up some XLS 1500 amplifiers also.

Regarding transient peaks and a wall point, the amp has capacitors to deliver the peaks wattage at those times needed. AND the wall point only has to feed the power supply which does its job at only supplying voltage to recharge caps. The wall point might state it will only put out "X," amount of voltage(watts) but it handles peaks also that are MUCH higher than that. So you will be fine with your smaller amps and peaks. AND I wouldnt worry about the HST handling the abuse of high voltage. I have beaten on mine pretty good with a pair of amps in free air loosening up the suspension.

I would be more worried about bottoming out the driver than VC issues.

"Music is the space between the notes"
[T]o talk well and eloquently is a very great art, but that an equally great one is to know the right moment to stop.
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post #25 of 32 Old 09-24-15, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pro amp help needed

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Will be good to see how your "audition," goes. I was looking at picking up some XLS 1500 amplifiers also.

Regarding transient peaks and a wall point, the amp has capacitors to deliver the peaks wattage at those times needed. AND the wall point only has to feed the power supply which does its job at only supplying voltage to recharge caps. The wall point might state it will only put out "X," amount of voltage(watts) but it handles peaks also that are MUCH higher than that. So you will be fine with your smaller amps and peaks. AND I wouldnt worry about the HST handling the abuse of high voltage. I have beaten on mine pretty good with a pair of amps in free air loosening up the suspension.

I would be more worried about bottoming out the driver than VC issues.
Thanks. I also am more worried about bottoming it out, hence the sealed box v ported.....

And I'm still thinking the HST-15 is the better bet for cost purposes......

I can boost it with PEQ to bring up the bottom end since I will have lots of power reserves, so even at lower volumes it can still stay fairly loud and flat below 20hz...

Regardless tomorrow is the test of the HT-15 with the XLS so we will see....
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post #26 of 32 Old 09-24-15, 06:11 PM
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Re: Pro amp help needed

I am building a 2.5cuft sealed cabinet for my HST 15. I love this driver.

"Music is the space between the notes"
[T]o talk well and eloquently is a very great art, but that an equally great one is to know the right moment to stop.
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post #27 of 32 Old 09-24-15, 06:27 PM
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Re: Pro amp help needed

My 2 cents here...

I'm driving a set of 4 12" GRS 12SW-4's in an IB setup with a Crown XLS1500, and my front L/R are powered by an XLS1000. I couldn't be happier. Given that I'm coming out of the pro-audio world and into the HT arena (and not the other way around) I had no reservations at all about the Crown XLS series of amps. I've been using them for about a decade in the worst conditions imaginable.

If the light-duty DSP aboard the new XLS series amps gives you pause, you might be happier with an older model like the XLS n02's. (202, 402, 602, 802). Those are just D-class circuitry with big toroidal power supplies and a gain knob... nothing fancy at all. The new XLi series are essentially re-badged XLS amps from two generations ago (toroids and stripped-down circuitry), so those will very likely not have the subsonic filters you're worried about.

The nice thing about the XLS1000-2500 series is that there's a new series (1002-2502), so the 00 models are getting to be dirt cheap.

Earlier in the thread, the 15 amp circuit was mentioned... You CAN run a ~2kW amp on a normal household circuit, but you're pushing your luck running more than one especially if you're going to be driving them hard. Another thing to consider is that if those monstrous amps are powered from the same circuit as the rest of your system, you have even less headroom in terms of current available from the breaker. You may very well find yourself spontaneously shutting down your rig when the bass drops.
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post #28 of 32 Old 09-24-15, 07:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pro amp help needed

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chrapladm wrote: View Post
I am building a 2.5cuft sealed cabinet for my HST 15. I love this driver.
Yup, I've been following your build with much anticipation... Hurry up and finish already

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DqMcClain wrote: View Post
If the light-duty DSP aboard the new XLS series amps gives you pause, you might be happier with an older model like the XLS n02's. (202, 402, 602, 802). Those are just D-class circuitry with big toroidal power supplies and a gain knob... nothing fancy at all. The new XLi series are essentially re-badged XLS amps from two generations ago (toroids and stripped-down circuitry), so those will very likely not have the subsonic filters you're worried about.

The nice thing about the XLS1000-2500 series is that there's a new series (1002-2502), so the 00 models are getting to be dirt cheap.
Yup, thats why I'm looking at them. The ONLY downfall is that they are looking for 1.4 Vrms on the input side to drive them fully. I'm not sure if my Integra will provide that much to the inputs, which is why lots of folks either use something like the DJ Art ProCleanbox to clean up and increase the voltage, OR the MiniDSP 2x4 (which also provides EQ ability).

The new XLS series has a switch to look for either .775 Vrms OR 1.4 Vrms on the input side which is mainly the only new thing I can see.

I'm not really worried about the DSP as much as the highpass thats built in starting at 20hz. Otherwise the rest is easy peasy and not troublesome. However the other amp lots of folks are using (Berhinger iNukes) also have a highpass at 20hz so its not uncommon.

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DqMcClain wrote: View Post
Earlier in the thread, the 15 amp circuit was mentioned... You CAN run a ~2kW amp on a normal household circuit, but you're pushing your luck running more than one especially if you're going to be driving them hard. Another thing to consider is that if those monstrous amps are powered from the same circuit as the rest of your system, you have even less headroom in terms of current available from the breaker. You may very well find yourself spontaneously shutting down your rig when the bass drops.
Yeah, I've got all my gear on it, which includes a B&K 200.5 which is a 375 watt x 5 @ 4 ohm amp, so I WILL hit the limit on my outlet LONG before the limit of the amp.....

But I dont anticipate running ANY amp full steam the entire time. Mainly I want the extra power reserves for use to throw a boost in the 20hz range of about 5-6 db. That throws the amp load in WinISD up by a large chunk even if I'm only planning on using 800-1200 watts at max.

Thats the main reason I want the extra headroom, the boost down low to make the box perform more like a ported box but without the need for a subsonic filter. And without reserves you cant do that and you have a much more linear dropoff rather than a curved response.

That make sense?

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My 2 cents here...
I'd say it was worth MUCH more than 2 cents. Maybe double that at 4
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post #29 of 32 Old 09-24-15, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pro amp help needed

So after playing around with WinISD here is what it comes down to.

The HST-15 in a 3 cubic foot box with a boost of 4.5 db @ 20hz with a Q of 1 with 1000 watts is a MUCH easier load and hits XMax but stays under so I'm not leaving any excursion on the table. The VA on it is ~950 starting at 14hz and stays fairly even there from what I am seeing.

The HST-18 in a 4 cubic foot box with a boost of 5 db @ 20hz with a Q of 1 with the SAME 1000 watts is a MUCH HARDER load to drive. I barely hit XMas and then stay below it so I am leaving some potential on the table under 20hz. The VA on it starts at around 200 watts @ 30 hz and peaks at 1800 watts @ 17hz, then drops to 970 watts @ 5 hz.

Graphs below. The HST-15 is Blue the HST-18 is RED and the HT-15 I have now is GREEN.

I have no idea if I need to account for Polyfil when putting the box size as BOTH the sealed boxes would be stuffed with as polyfil equal to the box size.


SPL:



Excursion:



Amp Load:

Last edited by EndersShadow; 09-24-15 at 08:53 PM.
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post #30 of 32 Old 09-24-15, 09:27 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pro amp help needed

All of that said, a pair of HT-18's with each sub in a 4 cubic foot box with 500 watts each outperforms the single HST-15 by quite a bit all the way down, and barely loses to the HST-18 in a similar sized box by itself.

This is important as the HT-18 is 159 so 2 of them come in UNDER the HST-15, and would work just fine off the XLS 1500, and I could in theory snag 4 of them for the price of a single HST-18..

Now I CANNOT make 4 subs work to begin with... but a set of HT-18's may be a better budget decision since I dont need a ton of power to fully utilize their potential and they have enough leftover in those 4 cubic foot boxes to add some PEQ to even out the response.....

But I'd still like to get one sub to rule them all so I dont know....
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