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post #1 of 32 Old 09-19-15, 11:38 PM Thread Starter
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Pro amp help needed

I'm looking to buy a amp to replace my Dayton SA-1000... Why you ask... well because I'm considering going with dual sealed subs (HST-15's) and my Dayton is a mono amp. Here is what I'm looking for.

1. Quiet
2. Lots of power
3. RCA inputs & speaker wire connections if possible

I've looked at the iNukes but I dont like the fact the fan is so loud. I REALLY REALLY REALLY like the Crown XLS stuff but I have learned they have a 20hz highpass filter built in that you can defeat, which if true takes it out of the running....

The plan is to run them direct from my AVR and would prefer not to have to go through a MiniDSP 2x4 Balanced (and then make all my own cables, etc). Right now I have an Integra DTR 5.9 and NO IDEA how much Vrms the pre-outs are using, so I'm going to guess its the standard 775. BUT I'm planning on moving to the Denon X4100 which has a higher pre-out voltage of 1.2 Vrms IIRC, which would let me drive the amp to almost its full potential.

So what would you suggest?

PS I'm not against running them both off the Dayton initially (will throw the EQ off a bit, and would be a waste of the massive excursion potential of the HST driver but whatever) and buying a second Dayton later, but they aren't cheap either so a single amp solution would be preferred....

Last edited by EndersShadow; 09-19-15 at 11:46 PM.
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post #2 of 32 Old 09-20-15, 02:19 AM
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Re: Pro amp help needed

Which HST's and what size enclosure?

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post #3 of 32 Old 09-20-15, 03:46 AM Thread Starter
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chrapladm wrote: View Post
Which HST's and what size enclosure?
Likely dual HST-15s in either 3 or 4 foot sealed enclosures.
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post #4 of 32 Old 09-20-15, 09:13 AM
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Re: Pro amp help needed

I have the HST 18's and I can truthfully say they need lots of power. If you are going with sealed enclosures all you are going to need for a x-over is the LPF on your AVR and yes a DSP is nice because even though the LPF is fine if you want to fine tune the subs using REW then the DSP comes in handy. Based on talking to Nick at Stereo Integrity I was told the HST18 will handle lots of power as in the 1500wrms rating is just a number he put up he said these subs can handle well beyond that. I am sure the 15 is not quite as beefy as the 18 but it will still handle a lot. If you go with a pro amp from what I read fan noise is going to be an issue some moe than others. I also understand by replacing the fans it will void the warranty and to some people taking the amp apart to replace the fans is not something they want to do.
When I started looking for amps I asked lots of questions sometimes repeating myself. so this is kind of the breakdown on what I looked at and what I finally got.

( Most of the info I got was from asking questions on the AVS forum )
nu6000 decided not to because in a best case situation 2 nu3000 would give better performance.
nu12000 too many negative reviews
CV-5000 too big this amp weighs almost 80lbs.
Crown to get the power I wanted too expensive.
FP14000 Clone amp came pretty close the price including shipping around 920 ( not bad for a 14000watt amp ) however if there is a problem they do offer a 2 year warr. but you have to call and they will help you fix it over the phone and then will send you the parts to fix but you pay shipping.
Peavey 7500 great amp can be bought for about the same as 2 nu3000 but to get the deal you go on e-bay type in Peavey7500 look for Audio Savings give them a call and see what their best price is.
Crest Pro Lite 7.5 I bought this one a higher end version of the Peavey it was listed for over 1000 I got it for 800. works great.
As a side note I was also told the either the 6000 or the pair of 3000's will work but it will not give these subs much of a work out. I know for a fact they move a lot of air.

You mentioned you wanted to avoid the miniDSP because of making the cables I was a little nervous about this also but there is plenty of images and how to threads on this and really it took less than 5 minutes to make a cable ( it was pretty easy ) it seems using the mini is not hard once you start really looking at it.Before I forget another thing with amps is to get a good quality amp I kind of look at it if you buy a really good car the warranty does not really come into play however if you buy a car with an iffy reputation then the warranty becomes important. In my case I replaced both fans in my Crest Amp all said and done 20minutes the amp is quiet and I paid less than 20 for both fans. I have never had an issue with over heating so I hope you find this helpful and it might make things a little easier.
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post #5 of 32 Old 09-20-15, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Pro amp help needed

Quote:
nwf477 wrote: View Post
I have the HST 18's and I can truthfully say they need lots of power. If you are going with sealed enclosures all you are going to need for a x-over is the LPF on your AVR and yes a DSP is nice because even though the LPF is fine if you want to fine tune the subs using REW then the DSP comes in handy. Based on talking to Nick at Stereo Integrity I was told the HST18 will handle lots of power as in the 1500wrms rating is just a number he put up he said these subs can handle well beyond that. I am sure the 15 is not quite as beefy as the 18 but it will still handle a lot.
I'm aware I dont need a high pass since its sealed, but if the amp HAS a high pass on it already, then its not going to do what I'm wanting which is boosting the low end specifically the below 20hz stuff....

Thats my end game here, increase the lower end stuff even if it costs a bit of the higher frequencies, BUT within a 3-4 cubic square foot sub MAX. I cant go bigger, and honestly 3 cubic foot is likely what I can do....

Quote:
nwf477 wrote: View Post
I have the HST 18's and I can truthfully say they need lots of power. If you are going with sealed enclosures all you are going to need for a x-over is the LPF on your AVR and yes a DSP is nice because even though the LPF is fine if you want to fine tune the subs using REW then the DSP comes in handy. Based on talking to Nick at Stereo Integrity I was told the HST18 will handle lots of power as in the 1500wrms rating is just a number he put up he said these subs can handle well beyond that. I am sure the 15 is not quite as beefy as the 18 but it will still handle a lot. If you go with a pro amp from what I read fan noise is going to be an issue some moe than others. I also understand by replacing the fans it will void the warranty and to some people taking the amp apart to replace the fans is not something they want to do.
When I started looking for amps I asked lots of questions sometimes repeating myself. so this is kind of the breakdown on what I looked at and what I finally got.


( Most of the info I got was from asking questions on the AVS forum )
nu6000 decided not to because in a best case situation 2 nu3000 would give better performance.
nu12000 too many negative reviews
CV-5000 too big this amp weighs almost 80lbs.
Crown to get the power I wanted too expensive.
FP14000 Clone amp came pretty close the price including shipping around 920 ( not bad for a 14000watt amp ) however if there is a problem they do offer a 2 year warr. but you have to call and they will help you fix it over the phone and then will send you the parts to fix but you pay shipping.
Peavey 7500 great amp can be bought for about the same as 2 nu3000 but to get the deal you go on e-bay type in Peavey7500 look for Audio Savings give them a call and see what their best price is.
Crest Pro Lite 7.5 I bought this one a higher end version of the Peavey it was listed for over 1000 I got it for 800. works great.
As a side note I was also told the either the 6000 or the pair of 3000's will work but it will not give these subs much of a work out. I know for a fact they move a lot of air.

Before I forget another thing with amps is to get a good quality amp I kind of look at it if you buy a really good car the warranty does not really come into play however if you buy a car with an iffy reputation then the warranty becomes important. In my case I replaced both fans in my Crest Amp all said and done 20 minutes the amp is quiet and I paid less than 20 for both fans. I have never had an issue with over heating so I hope you find this helpful and it might make things a little easier.
Thank you for your thoughts. I will take a look through the list and see whats what. I should mention my initial goal is to see if the XLS 1500 or 2500 would work best as I may have a line on either for a very low price from a buddy. However if they do have a 20hz lowpass then it likely makes no sense to use since thats the main reason I'm looking to move from a HT-15 in a ported box to the HST. The Crowns also have fans that rarely turn on, so they are good for being quiet.... But again if they wont work, they wont work....

I dont doubt I could take the amps apart and DO the work to replace the fan, but I dont want to deal with potential problems or a voided warranty due to the fan replacement, or down time during a repair. Additionally my rack does not have somewhere I can put the amp where it gets optimum airflow.....

Quote:
nwf477 wrote: View Post
You mentioned you wanted to avoid the miniDSP because of making the cables I was a little nervous about this also but there is plenty of images and how to threads on this and really it took less than 5 minutes to make a cable ( it was pretty easy ) it seems using the mini is not hard once you start really looking at it.
Their are a couple reasons I dont want to deal with a MiniDSP. I had one (2 x 4 RCA) and sold it.

1. I will have XT 32 on my AVR and would prefer to let that do its thing
2. I dont want to deal with making my own cables as I'd want to use high quality interconnects, and would then have to basically destroy them to make my own
3. I've got a 2 year old and a newborn on the way, I don't really have time to tweak
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post #6 of 32 Old 09-20-15, 07:42 PM
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Re: Pro amp help needed

Quote:
EndersShadow wrote: View Post
I'm looking to buy a amp to replace my Dayton SA-1000... Why you ask... well because I'm considering going with dual sealed subs (HST-15's) and my Dayton is a mono amp. Here is what I'm looking for.

1. Quiet
2. Lots of power
3. RCA inputs & speaker wire connections if possible

I've looked at the iNukes but I dont like the fact the fan is so loud. I REALLY REALLY REALLY like the Crown XLS stuff but I have learned they have a 20hz highpass filter built in that you can defeat, which if true takes it out of the running....

The plan is to run them direct from my AVR and would prefer not to have to go through a MiniDSP 2x4 Balanced (and then make all my own cables, etc). Right now I have an Integra DTR 5.9 and NO IDEA how much Vrms the pre-outs are using, so I'm going to guess its the standard 775. BUT I'm planning on moving to the Denon X4100 which has a higher pre-out voltage of 1.2 Vrms IIRC, which would let me drive the amp to almost its full potential.

So what would you suggest?

PS I'm not against running them both off the Dayton initially (will throw the EQ off a bit, and would be a waste of the massive excursion potential of the HST driver but whatever) and buying a second Dayton later, but they aren't cheap either so a single amp solution would be preferred....
Class D Audio SDS-470. Stereo amplifier with 600 watts per channel into 4 ohms with balanced and single ended inputs, level controls and no fan. Quiet, powerful and compact.
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post #7 of 32 Old 09-21-15, 08:07 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Pro amp help needed

Ok so I'm now debating going for 2 HST-15's.... I'm going to try and buy both and then build the first, and then the second (to replace the end table).

My budget CANNOT reach to 4 (2 x DO) so thats not an option really. And I'm thinking that I should go with 2 independent subs rather than one DO sub (box size cant change so 2 x 3 cubic feet x 1 sub trumps 1 x 3 cubic feet with 2 subs). That way I can help even out the response, though I'm sure SPL wise I will pay for the difference with a few less db, which I am honestly fine with (at least my head says that should be ok)....

What I'm thinking is to build 2 3 cubic foot sealed downfiring boxes. I'm not sure if I need them to be 1.5" thick or can just do 3/4 thick and a double baffle..... My HOPE is that I can do that and then just buy 2 DIYSoundGroup 3 cubic foot boxes because then all the work and cutting is done for me. They I just need to finish one to look like an endtable. Additionally one of my co-workers husbands is a cabinet maker, so I might be able to have him make me 2 boxes and help me finish the one to look like an end table. But at 90 bucks shipped for a pre-made enclosure, its hard to beat that price.

I also talked to Crown about their XLS amps and the subsonic/highpass filter I've been reading about. They told me there is a rolloff starting at 20hz that is a 18db per octave. They also mentioned this is kinda a industry standard for pro amps.... So I now have a couple questions

1. Am I correct in thinking this means the output RMS wise is down 18db from 20hz to 10hz? If so how would I model that in WinISD, or do I even need to.
2. Should I just try to instead of a pro-amp, secure another Dayton SA1000 amp and run one sub per amp (1000 watts @ 4 ohms)?

And lastly I have some concerns about the HST driver in a sealed box. Do I need to worry about them walking around on me? My thought was to install feet of some sort that can then take a set of spikes (Dayton DSS3) to couple it to the floor. Here is what I am thinking about but I want some thoughts.

I am going to make these downfiring. My thought process is to build some sort of hollow section at the top, into which I will put plastic ziploc bags filled with play sand. This top section will be totally enclosed and glued/sealed to make sure nothing leaks, but it will add a significant amount of mass to the enclosure to make sure it wont move around. Then another piece of MDF will go over the top of it to close it off. I figure about a 1 or 2" section filled with sand should do a very good job at making sure the enclosure doesnt bounce.

1. It this a good idea, have you seen it done before (and links to it please)?
2. Do I need to add additional mass?

And my last thought which I'm 90% going to go with is to wire the enclosures to accept both bananna/spade connections AND speak-on. My main question is I see there is a 2 pin and a 4 pin chassic connector... which should I use and why? Additionally can I tie those in line with the RCA connections as well or do I need to run them independent of the RCA connections?

Last edited by EndersShadow; 09-21-15 at 08:48 AM.
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post #8 of 32 Old 09-21-15, 04:59 PM
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Re: Pro amp help needed

Iíll take a shot at some of your questions.


Quote:
EndersShadow wrote: View Post
1. Am I correct in thinking this means the output RMS wise is down 18db from 20hz to 10hz?
Frequency response will be down 18 dB at 10 Hz.


Quote:
And my last thought which I'm 90% going to go with is to wire the enclosures to accept both bananna/spade connections AND speak-on. My main question is I see there is a 2 pin and a 4 pin chassic connector... which should I use and why?
Go with 4-pin, and wire the driver to 1+ and 1-. The 2-pin version isnít really used much. For example, if you buy an off-the-shelf Speakon speaker cable, it will have a 4-pin connector.


Quote:
Additionally can I tie those in line with the RCA connections as well or do I need to run them independent of the RCA connections?
You lost me here. Iím sure you arenít talking about tying speaker lines into RCAís but thatís what it sounds like.

Regards,
Wayne



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post #9 of 32 Old 09-21-15, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Pro amp help needed

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Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote: View Post
Iíll take a shot at some of your questions.


Frequency response will be down 18 dB at 10 Hz.


Go with 4-pin, and wire the driver to 1+ and 1-. The 2-pin version isnít really used much. For example, if you buy an off-the-shelf Speakon speaker cable, it will have a 4-pin connector.
Thanks Wayne thats what I was wondering. That makes a bit stronger of a case for using another Dayton SA-1000 rather than a pro amp.

Quote:
Wayne A. Pflughaupt wrote: View Post
You lost me here. Iím sure you arenít talking about tying speaker lines into RCAís but thatís what it sounds like.

Regards,
Wayne
Sorry what I meant to say is can I wire the speakon connections in line with the binding post connections so I can easily switch between the two without having to pull the driver out....

Brain was on meltdown at work so I used RCA where I should have used binding posts....
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post #10 of 32 Old 09-22-15, 08:07 AM
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Re: Pro amp help needed

Sure, it’s no problem tying the Speakon and binding post together. Paralleling dual connectors is actually very common in pro audio speakers.

Regards,
Wayne



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