LMS-5400 buy-in - Page 18 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

 
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post #171 of 312 Old 09-22-07, 03:50 PM
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Re: LMS-5400 / RL-p18" buy-in

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I have to say the XBL^2 drivers I've played with (Avalanche, tumult) have had some of the cleanest, most accurate bass I've heard
Quote:
Is slightly higher upper-end (say above 40-50 Hz) distortion actually preferred by many? Does it make the driver sound more accurate and punchy because there is more high frequency content in the mix?
It would be nice to see an Avalanche 18 measured because some owners are saying there isn't enough punch in the higher frequencies. I have to think that be because it is clean near the top, and they want that synthetic punch. The Tumult that was measured IS a letdown to me - Dan could go on for pages about how everything he did was the right choice, but the measurements say something else. I dare say it measures poorly for the price - they were going for ~$600. I wouldn't be suprised to see the Avalanche at half the cost best the Tumult in just about every regard....except maybe for power hadling capability.


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post #172 of 312 Old 09-22-07, 03:52 PM
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Re: LMS-5400 / RL-p18" buy-in

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SteveCallas wrote: View Post
It would be nice to see an Avalanche 18 measured because some owners are saying there isn't enough punch in the higher frequencies.
You have three of them? Send me one and I'll promise to measure it.
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post #173 of 312 Old 09-22-07, 05:15 PM
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Re: LMS-5400 / RL-p18" buy-in

"Send me one and I'll promise to measure it."

I'm all for that. The Avalanches are the most highly regarded unmeasured dwoofers I can think of.

I'll chip in $50 toward the shipping.
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post #174 of 312 Old 09-22-07, 05:16 PM
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Re: LMS-5400 / RL-p18" buy-in

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It would be nice to see an Avalanche 18 measured because some owners are saying there isn't enough punch in the higher frequencies. I have to think that be because it is clean near the top
You reckon its significantly cleaner in the upper frequencies than the SDX?

I dunno...I'd actually say the those complaining of a lack of "punch" in the upper frequencies are merely complaining about the roll off in upper frequency output (not to say its extreme, but it is there). Rob has an AVA 15 and his RS390 has a definite advantage in the upper frequencies due in part to its lower inductance. He's already commented on gunshots sounding much better than ever before...no surprise there.
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post #175 of 312 Old 09-22-07, 05:38 PM
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Re: LMS-5400 / RL-p18" buy-in

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Ilkka wrote:
You have three of them? Send me one and I'll promise to measure it.
If you were in the states I would probably be up for it, but I wouldn't want to take the risk of one getting damaged (or lost) sending it overseas - you can't really go out and buy a replacement.

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noah wrote:
I'll chip in $50 toward the shipping.
You have four of them yourself if I'm not mistaken. I'll chip in if you want to send one of yours.

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Willy wrote:
I dunno...I'd actually say the those complaining of a lack of "punch" in the upper frequencies are merely complaining about the roll off in upper frequency output (not to say its extreme, but it is there).
It would show up in their FR then. But that brings up a good point because it reminds me that the two owners complaining of lack of punch have pretty terrible in room FRs. Sometimes the culprit is the most obvious culprit.

As for high end rolloff on the Avalanche 18, there is some, but it shouldn't cause any dips in response as long as you don't use a crossover higher than 80hz. I've never had any problem keeping that range nice and flat in my setup at my old place or new one. Attached are some close mic FRs I took of the ported Avalanche 18 using an 80hz and 200hz crossover with all speakers off.
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post #176 of 312 Old 09-22-07, 05:47 PM
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Re: LMS-5400 / RL-p18" buy-in

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It would show up in their FR then.
Oh but it does show up in a measurement. Here are two near field measurements. One of an AVA15 and the other of the 390. The difference is obvious.





Quote:
As for high end rolloff on the Avalanche 18, there is some, but it shouldn't cause any dips in response as long as you don't use a crossover higher than 80hz
I won't talk about dips, but since the crossover to the sub isn't a brickwall, the linearity of the driver beyond the xover point is indeed relevent. So it only makes sense that a more linear driver in the upper frequencies would sound punchier than one that rolls off the high end to a degree.

Now yeah, the rolloff in the last graph you posted is certainly not bad. Only ~4dB down at 100Hz, right? Still there though...so I guess all I am saying is...blaming others thoughts about the Ava's lack of punch on their penchant for higher distortion may not be entirely correct. It could be...but I think the ava's roll off also may be a good portion of it. We've yet to be given a reason to think the Ava has abnormally good upper frequency response.

Quote:
If you were in the states I would probably be up for it, but I wouldn't want to take the risk of one getting damaged (or lost) sending it overseas - you can't really go out and buy a replacement.
Hey, what about a Klippel? I am pretty sure npdang (he's in CA) would test an Ava 18 for free. That'd be much cheaper, easier, and safer than sending one overseas. Quite informative too!
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post #177 of 312 Old 09-22-07, 06:10 PM
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Re: LMS-5400 / RL-p18" buy-in

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Oh but it does show up in a measurement
That's only the sub. If there were a lack of punch due to a dip in FR in the upper bass range caused by the rolloff of the sub above the crossover frequency as you mentioned in your previous post, you'd need to measure up to ~200hz with the mains in play to see it. Seeing as most processors use a 4th order crossover slope, that would put the sub 24db down by 160hz. A couple db difference in output form the sub that high shouldn't really matter, especially when you consider that room effects play a huge role in that range.

Now that said, again, I have't observed such dropoff in upper bass myself, and I know my VR3s don't have humped bass above 100hz which could be making up for it. My response up to 200hz was extremely flat in the old place - haven't measured it at this new place.

Also, I'm not necessarily "blaming" others' perceived lack of punch on low distortion, as I just remembered after your post that they both have pretty bad in room FRs.
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post #178 of 312 Old 09-22-07, 06:22 PM
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Re: LMS-5400 / RL-p18" buy-in

LINEAR response graph...
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post #179 of 312 Old 09-22-07, 06:25 PM
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Re: LMS-5400 / RL-p18" buy-in

In more ways then one


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post #180 of 312 Old 09-22-07, 06:28 PM
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Re: LMS-5400 / RL-p18" buy-in

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That's only the sub. If there were a lack of punch due to a dip in FR in the upper bass range caused by the rolloff of the sub above the crossover frequency as you mentioned in your previous post, you'd need to measure up to ~200hz with the mains in play to see it.
Yeah, I understand what you're saying.

But the fact that those measurements I linked to are only of the sub driver doesn't negate them, if anything they are more useful. Their deficiencies can't be masked. If a roll off exists, it will show up.

Quote:
Also, I'm not necessarily "blaming" others' perceived lack of punch on low distortion
Well, you kind of hinted at it with this:

"It would be nice to see an Avalanche 18 measured because some owners are saying there isn't enough punch in the higher frequencies. I have to think that be because it is clean near the top, and they want that synthetic punch."

You say it is clean near the top but how clean, relative to what, and where is the evidence?

Quote:
Seeing as most processors use a 4th order crossover slope, that would put the sub 24db down by 160hz. A couple db difference in output form the sub that high shouldn't really matter, especially when you consider that room effects play a huge role in that range.
Quote:
Now that said, again, I have't observed such dropoff in upper bass myself, and I know my VR3s don't have humped bass above 100hz which could be making up for it. My response up to 200hz was extremely flat in the old place - haven't measured it at this new place.
But you do use a 60Hz xover, so it'd only make sense that you shouldn't suffer from such problem. Have a FR of just your VR3s? Boundary gain could definitely increase their response around 100Hz.

Just things to think about.
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