Subwoofer Tests Round 5, 6th of October 2007, Test Summary ***READ ME*** - Page 5 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com

 
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post #41 of 71 Old 01-14-08, 05:26 AM
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Re: Subwoofer Tests Round 5, 6th of October 2007, Test Summary ***READ ME***

my views on the results:

1) the 5400 is a very impressive driver. in the passive box it's performance is not
supprising, however the sealed box is most impressive.
2) except for the 5400, all of the diy 15 sealed have unusual high THD between
50-100hz. a bit strange considering the level of those drivers.
3) the sdx-15 is disappointing below 25hz and impressive above 25hz.
4) the JL fathom's THD graphs don't look much at first glance, however it's
performance considering the driver size is very good. also in the cea2010
it gave gr8 numbers.
5) the svs ultra is one amazing subwoofer for the money. even it's sealed mode
gave good results. the 10hz mode is pretty useless except for maybe very
small rooms.
6) the yamaha subwoofer shows just how much marketing "bla bla" is involved
in this industry...
7) to Ilkka.
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post #42 of 71 Old 01-15-08, 01:13 PM
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Re: Subwoofer Tests Round 5, 6th of October 2007, Test Summary ***READ ME***

I think that the LMS results confirm that it is the real deal. Its performance in the 100L sealed is really impressive and the 200L PR system is more of the same. I don't know of any other drivers that will perform like that in those box sizes. The fate of Audiopulse/TC seems to be in doubt so maybe that has hampered interest. That and the $2000 retail price.

F113 i thought did really well for the size of the box and backed up it's hype that it has had going lately.

The SVS PB13 Ultra definately backed up it's rep as well and was the surprise of the group IMOP. Everyone assumed it would do well, but it seemed to do even better than could be hoped. Impressive.

The sealed SDX 15's did ok, but I was a little underwhelmed, especially after the performance of some of the other units. To me it seemed like the performance below 20hz was poor.
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post #43 of 71 Old 01-15-08, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Subwoofer Tests Round 5, 6th of October 2007, Test Summary ***READ ME***

Quote:
Ricci wrote: View Post
The sealed SDX 15's did ok, but I was a little underwhelmed, especially after the performance of some of the other units. To me it seemed like the performance below 20hz was poor.
Do you mean the distortion? Yeah, it's a bit higher than for example with the TC-2000, but IMO distortion below 20 Hz isn't the most important thing in a subwoofer. If everything else is OK, then you might be check that also the VLF is clean as possible. Also the SDX15's distortion is mostly 2nd order harmonic so it's extremely hard to hear.
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post #44 of 71 Old 01-15-08, 06:53 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Subwoofer Tests Round 5, 6th of October 2007, Test Summary ***READ ME***

Quote:
Itay wrote: View Post
2) except for the 5400, all of the diy 15 sealed have unusual high THD between
50-100hz. a bit strange considering the level of those drivers.
It's the inductance doing its evil work there. Most of these high excursion drivers have very high real world inductance (and its variation with current and excursion). But luckily the THD contains mostly low order harmonics so it isn't that easy to pick up.

Quote:
4) the JL fathom's THD graphs don't look much at first glance, however it's
performance considering the driver size is very good. also in the cea2010
it gave gr8 numbers.
Driver size but also the size of the enclosure. It's MUCH smaller than for example the PB13-Ultra.
Quote:
5) the svs ultra is one amazing subwoofer for the money. even it's sealed mode
gave good results. the 10hz mode is pretty useless except for maybe very
small rooms.
I would choose the 10 Hz mode over sealed. Though I wouldn't use anything else than the 20 Hz or 15 Hz with it. Those others are just wasting its performance.
Quote:
6) the yamaha subwoofer shows just how much marketing "bla bla" is involved
in this industry...
The Yamaha didn't quite cut it but IMO it's not THAT bad. It gives high SPL in mid bass range which means it's a pretty good "party subwoofer".
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post #45 of 71 Old 01-16-08, 05:50 AM
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Re: Subwoofer Tests Round 5, 6th of October 2007, Test Summary ***READ ME***

Ahh, I don't like high inductance...

The 10hz on the ultra does look better than the sealed option, and both do waste
It's performance.

Yahama went a bit far stating the 1500 does 16HZ, and does it "well"...
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post #46 of 71 Old 01-16-08, 12:06 PM
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Re: Subwoofer Tests Round 5, 6th of October 2007, Test Summary ***READ ME***

Quote:
Ilkka wrote: View Post
Do you mean the distortion? Yeah, it's a bit higher than for example with the TC-2000, but IMO distortion below 20 Hz isn't the most important thing in a subwoofer. If everything else is OK, then you might be check that also the VLF is clean as possible. Also the SDX15's distortion is mostly 2nd order harmonic so it's extremely hard to hear.
I agree about the amount of distortion at 16 and 20hz not being that bad in the real world, but it is still higher than the TC2K. Mostly though it was the output. The dual SDX's in 140L had 2 Ce4000's running to it right? The LMS was in a smaller enclosure with 1 amp and it put up significantly better 20 and 16hz #'s while being cleaner too. Maybe that's not a fair comparison but still...
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post #47 of 71 Old 01-16-08, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Subwoofer Tests Round 5, 6th of October 2007, Test Summary ***READ ME***

Quote:
Ricci wrote: View Post
I agree about the amount of distortion at 16 and 20hz not being that bad in the real world, but it is still higher than the TC2K. Mostly though it was the output. The dual SDX's in 140L had 2 Ce4000's running to it right? The LMS was in a smaller enclosure with 1 amp and it put up significantly better 20 and 16hz #'s while being cleaner too. Maybe that's not a fair comparison but still...
Well the LMS-5400 is by far the cleanest and the best driver I have ever measured, so naturally any other "normal" driver will look bad compared to it.
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post #48 of 71 Old 01-16-08, 02:11 PM
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Re: Subwoofer Tests Round 5, 6th of October 2007, Test Summary ***READ ME***

Quote:
Ilkka wrote: View Post
I am a bit surprised that the latest round of results hasn't caused more discussion? Are the results so clear that no one cares to comment anything or are they too difficult to understand? There was a lot of discussion prior to the measurements about the LMS woofer etc, but now no one says anything about the results they got.

Do I have to start giving random points to the subwoofers in order to get some more traffic here?
LOL, No . . . . we don't need no steenking random point assignments for the speakers!
Ilkka, I think what happened last year was all of us DIYers were interested in the "ultimate" driver. Everything was pointing to the LMS-5400 18" but we didn't have anyone with the right credentials to do the building and testing. The process that you proposed took more than half a year to bear fruit. Then you kinda let the cat out of the bag when you tested the drivers in "free air" after you had finally received your unit that had shipped over seas. We were all blown away as soon as we saw your results. The LMS-5400 performance was easy to recognize as the top driver. The only final proof needed was to measure it in-box.
You constructed TWO boxes and had the CE 4000 to drive them with. There was going to be NO question at the end of this adventure as to which driver was "the best" and for us sumo-scientific guys we thought we were finally going to have THAT driver and box that would rattle the frequency response all the way down to 10Hz and reference levels with little or no distortion.
Your test procedures and display of results leave little else for us to imagine. The graphs and pictures show and answer almost all of our questions. You ARE good at that you know!!!
The LMS-5400 IS THE BEST sub driver to date . . . . . . however to our amazement it is no longer realistically available to the DIY world. We sit in utter amazement and silence. Our dreams have been answered and yet we sit with head in hands wondering how this could have happened. Yes there are a few people lucky enough to have the LMS driver but way fewer than needed for it to become an ICON.
Don't be dismayed at the lack of discussion, we're still trying to wrestle with our realities. We'll get back at it . . . . . but we will have to replace a discussion about the worlds best driver with . . . . . what . . . . .I dunno.
Phil
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post #49 of 71 Old 01-17-08, 01:07 AM
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Re: Subwoofer Tests Round 5, 6th of October 2007, Test Summary ***READ ME***

I think you're taking this a bit too seriously man


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post #50 of 71 Old 01-17-08, 07:07 AM
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Re: Subwoofer Tests Round 5, 6th of October 2007, Test Summary ***READ ME***

I agree with Phil--DIY took a big hit in the gut when TC went bonkers-retail on us...

I know I'm in a bit of a quandry as to what to do; hence the near silence (except when confirming the the 13 Ultra is really an excellent offering).

I love the SVS, and feel it is really the ideal mix of aesthetics, performance and value, but couldn't help thinking that DIY with the LMS unit would finally put the nail in my upgraditis coffin...

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