HTS Two-Channel Speaker Setup Guide for a Deep Soundstage - Page 9 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
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post #81 of 124 Old 12-15-15, 11:33 AM
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Re: HTS Two-Channel Speaker Setup Guide for a Deep Soundstage

Quote:
Savjac wrote: View Post
Hi there Mac,
By Diagonal do you mean with the corner of the room centered between the speakers ??
Yes, speakers are about 7' apart, 6' from Lp
Baffles are 2' from wall behind them
Sounds ok but but center image is skewed all the way left with very little sound stage.
I know these speakers can "disappear" nicely in a different room.
















Edit: it works! Just not getting a wider than speakers stage.
Imaging is very good with typical vocals with drums behind in center.
C=11'
B= 96"
A=69"
Great stuff! Thanks!!
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post #82 of 124 Old 12-15-15, 05:52 PM Thread Starter
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If you can do it with the speakers set up symmetrically in the room on the diagonal, it should work great.
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post #83 of 124 Old 12-15-15, 06:21 PM
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Re: HTS Two-Channel Speaker Setup Guide for a Deep Soundstage

Wayne is right as usual, but might I suggest that some of the problem may result from the speakers being so close and possibly directed right at the listener ? Set up as they are seems to be the best way of doing so in the office room. It appears that it may be helpful to put some sound deadening material on the walls outside of either speaker. That may stop those early reflections that can kill side imaging.

I am going through the same issue myself and have not quite dialed it in. And maybe there is no perfect way and maybe the sound will not go beyond the edges of the speakers, but being a maniac I will keep trying.
Good Luck

Good Listening

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post #84 of 124 Old 12-15-15, 09:06 PM
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HTS Two-Channel Speaker Setup Guide for a Deep Soundstage

Yes, as Wayne and Jack have pointed out, symmetry is key. Damping first reflections is also a worthy cause, as is moving the speakers to position the baffles flush with the desk's edge. That will eliminate the desktop as a source of reflections. More importantly though, I believe you're experiencing the hole-in-the-middle effect. Locating the speakers too far apart can easily cause this, and it doesn't hurt to try something different. Experimentation is as key as symmetry.
The section entitled "Making Adjustments" in the first post offers some good pointers how to go about this. Not implying you don't already know how - just saying there might be something in there you haven't yet tried. To get a really special soundstage, we have to be willing to compromise on aesthetics and practicality. You didn't really need the desk to do actual work, did you?


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post #85 of 124 Old 12-15-15, 09:49 PM
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Re: HTS Two-Channel Speaker Setup Guide for a Deep Soundstage

Quote:
macddmac wrote: View Post
Yes, speakers are about 7' apart, 6' from Lp
Baffles are 2' from wall behind them
Sounds ok but but center image is skewed all the way left with very little sound stage.
I know these speakers can "disappear" nicely in a different room.
Macddmac,

Play around with this. Center your chair in that room and place it 65%-80% from the front wall. Get another TV tray and place your speakers 3-4 feet from the front wall and 7 feet apart (as long as they are 30" to 3' from the side wall.

Test out the sound and report back.
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post #86 of 124 Old 12-15-15, 10:50 PM
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Re: HTS Two-Channel Speaker Setup Guide for a Deep Soundstage

Will play with it some more but i think I'm as as good as it gets givin the room limitations.
Imaging is very good to excellent depending on source quality.
Soundstage width/depth is good to very good.
I can't achieve perfect symmetry do to furnishings/ open doorway- left speaker is 4' plus from diagonall wall,
Right is 16" from sidewall.

Will build some treatments when I have some time, but I doubt that I'll realize significant improvement.
Every little bit helps thou
Cheers, Mac

PS- was in basement theater last night using same technique- that one is more of a work in progress as I have a sofa seriously hindering my width placement.
Great speakers down there too: PE Usher UA-721's.. Crazy wide stage- depth will be a challenge..
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post #87 of 124 Old 12-16-15, 11:08 AM Thread Starter
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Re: HTS Two-Channel Speaker Setup Guide for a Deep Soundstage

I doubt that perfect symmetry is absolutely necessary. General symmetry plus a few treatments probably do the trick. A room with longer RT60 times might have "unbalanced spaciousness" effects where one side sounds bigger than the other. My own listening area is far from symmetrical, but RT60 is quite low and I do not notice anything like this. With longer RT60, absorptive treatment can help balance this effect out.

As pointed out, early reflections can really throw off the imaging and soundstage. Treatments here are very beneficial. My own rules for early reflections:
  • Less than 5 mS (of additional delay relative to the delay of the direct wavefront from speaker to LP; on an impulse response plot, it will be easy to read that relative delay directly): disruptive to image clarity, must be absorbed.
  • Between 5 mS and 15 mS: must be VERY summetrical (direction and delay time) and must be perceived as coming from the vertical line of sight from speaker to LP; if the reflections are NOT coming along the vertical line of sight from speaker to LP, or if not symmetrical, then either absorb or scatter them. Scatter them with a reflective surface pattern that does not reflect ANY of the sound directly at the LP (I have gotten into long arguments about this last point, but experiments have proven to me that it is very important for the best imaging, and I do not care what expert says otherwise, they are WRONG).
    • Example 1: ceiling reflections (flat ceiling) would be on that vertical line of sight, and might be only delayed by 8 mS or so, and would probably be highly symmetrical. They are OK, though, will not smear the image L or R, and will add a small amount of spaciousness to the sound, as well as some height info to the soundstage.
    • Example 2: in a symmetrical room, reflections off the side walls, if only a few feet from the speakers, would be symmetrical, and would fall within the 5 to 15 mS window, but would NOT be on the vertical speaker to LP line of sight, so imaging would be smeared and softened, so they are not OK. Absorb or scatter (see above).
    • Example 3: Reflective panels on the front wall on the vertical line of sight from LP to speaker could be angled so the reflections are on or very close to that line of sight and are very summetrical and fall in the specified delay range. These are OK, can enhance the soundstage and imaging. However, the natural reflection points on the front wall just inside those panels would not fall on that line of sight and would mess up the imaging. Absorb or scatter (see above) at those natural reflection points.
  • More than 15 mS: less critical. In general, better scattered, and the direction of reflection is not important, although randomized is better.
These guidelines have also been added to the Guide in the first post.
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post #88 of 124 Old 12-16-15, 11:29 AM
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Re: HTS Two-Channel Speaker Setup Guide for a Deep Soundstage

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AudiocRaver wrote: View Post
I doubt that perfect symmetry is absolutely necessary. General symmetry plus a few treatments probably does the trick. A room with longer RT60 times might have "unbalanced spaciousness" effects where one side sounds bigger than the other. My own listening area is far from symmetrical, but RT60 is quite low and I do not notice anything like this. With longer RT60, absorptive treatment can help balance this effect out.

As pointed out, early reflections can really throw off the imaging and soundstage. Treatments here are very beneficial. My own rules for early reflections:
  • Less than 5 mS (of additional delay relative to the delay of the direct wavefront from speaker to LP; on an impulse response plot, it will be easy to read that relative delay directly): must be absorbed.
  • Between 5 mS and 15 mS: must be VERY summetrical (direction and delay time) and must be perceived as coming from the line of sight from speaker to LP; if the reflection is NOT coming along the line of sight from speaker to LP, or if not symmetrical, then either absorb or scatter them. Scatter them with a reflective surface pattern that does not reflect ANY of the sound directly at the LP (I have gotten into long arguments about
    this last point, but experiments have proven to me that it is very important for the best imaging, and I do not care what expert says otherwise, they are WRONG).
    • Example 1: a ceiling reflection (flat ceiling) would be on that line of sight, and might be only delayed by 8 mS or so, and would probably be highly symmetrical. It is OK, though, will not smear the image L or R, and will add a small amount of spaciousness to the sound, as well as some height info to the soundstage.
    • Example 2: in a symmetrical room, reflections off the side walls, if only a few feet from the speakers, would be symmetrical, and would fall within the 5 to 15 mS window, but would NOT be on the speaker to LP line of sight,
      so imaging would be smeared and softened, so they are not OK. Absorbe or scatter.
    • Example 3: Reflective panels on the front wall on the line of sight from LP to speaker could be angled so the reflections are on or very close to the line of sight from LP to speaker and are very summetrical and fall in the specified delay range. These are OK, can enhance the soundstage and imaging. However, the natural reflection points on the front walls just inside those panels would not fall on that line of sight and would mess up the imaging. Absorb or scatter.
  • More than 15 mS: less critical. In general, better scattered, and the direction of reflection is not important, although randomized is better.
These guidelines have also been added to the Guide in the first post.
Great stuff- I'm going to run REW in both rooms to determine what treatment would be appropriate.
Cheers, Mac
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post #89 of 124 Old 12-27-15, 08:49 PM
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Re: HTS Two-Channel Speaker Setup Guide for a Deep Soundstage

Hello I'd love to hear your thoughts on how best to set up my Martin Logan Electromotions in my room. Thank you!

My set up is:
Jriver (on RPI) -> Schiit Yggy DAC -> ATI6002 amp -> ML electromotion (also using a REL S/3 sub - connected directly to the DAC).

I'd love to get some advice on how to organize my listening room. I have great sound but I'm lacking the 3D sound stage...

It is a large room (in UK standards) 32sqm - with a high ceiling (3m).
It's a dedicated listening room, though my wife still mistakes it for a living room so I can't go all crazy with room treatments and speaker placement - though I can do around 1.5m from the side and back walls easily.

My main problem, I think, is that the front wall (behind the speakers) is angled, so one speaker is closer to the back wall than the other - if I place them parallel to the sofa and the bottom wall.

What I've tried to do now is to angle the sofa to be parallel to the angled front wall and place the speakers in the same distance, again try to make them parallel to that wall. It sounds OK but I'm not getting that holographic 3D sound-stage - it's wide but not especially deep.

The room is quite resonant. Lots of empty surfaces and a wooden floor - the speakers and sub are sitting on Townshend seismic isolation platform that work very well.

I use REW and a calibrated microphone to integrate the sub - since I don't have a seperate sub channel I 'play it along' with the speakers and apply EQ (via Jriver) to both to get the response back to earth - works a treat.







Please share your thoughts.
I've tried applying the formulas in the first post and got a bit lost...

Thank you!
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post #90 of 124 Old 12-27-15, 09:44 PM
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Re: HTS Two-Channel Speaker Setup Guide for a Deep Soundstage

Nearly square room with lots of reflective surfaces..add to that, the electrostatic speakers, which can have a smallish sweet spot.
Stick to the ratios mentioned in the opening post and adjust from there.
A larger thick rug, perhaps a tapestry on that fireplace wall, adjust the blinds so that they're not completely closed for some possible diffusion.
Failing that, try a diagonal layout.
Looks to be a rather live room which can pose challenges due to multiple reflective surfaces.
Try a few adjustments based on the principles layed out in the opening post first, while considering the reflective nature of the room.
Let us know what you come up with .
Cheers, Mac
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