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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all,
I'm just starting my journey into the home audio scene and need some advice.
I currently have a Klipsch Cinema 600 sound bar which allows for an addition of one subwoofer. I bought a pb3000 a week ago and am loving it. However I am craving a little more tactile bass.
It is set up in my living room which has a 19 ft ceiling and is a open concept. There isn't a lot of options for sub placement because it is in the living room so it'll be either on the left or right of the TV.
I was wondering if adding another pb3000 on the other side of the TV would give me more tactile bass, or just getting a single pb 16 ultra.
Thank you in advance!
 

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Hi Tendytown,
I am researching the same thing. So far things seem to point to 2 subs being better than 1.
As far as placement goes the recommendations point to one in the front and one in the back.
Here is a link to a good video talking about the subject.
 

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Two PB3000 would definitely outperform a single pb16. Plus there’s the added potential of smoothing the FR. Unless you’ve measured with REW, you could be sitting in a null. Or possibly just want more bass too. Still. Two PB3k would be better.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thank you willis7469! Looks like most people are in favor of 2 so that's the road I'll take.
 

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If it were me I would be looking to sell the soundbar and start investing on a AVR and proper speakers. Having 2xPP3000's or a PB16 without any Room EQ seems a bit backwards IMHO.

For example it you had Audyssey with the App you could find the best location for a single sub for your MLP. You can then run the sub hot while still having clean bass as the peaks will be cut. This alone might be a better upgrade than going dual for now. Then having a nice front stage speakers of your choice and budget will no doubt sound better than the Klipsch Cinema 600.

Just my 2cents
 

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If it were me I would be looking to sell the soundbar and start investing on a AVR and proper speakers. Having 2xPP3000's or a PB16 without any Room EQ seems a bit backwards IMHO.

For example it you had Audyssey with the App you could find the best location for a single sub for your MLP. You can then run the sub hot while still having clean bass as the peaks will be cut. This alone might be a better upgrade than going dual for now. Then having a nice front stage speakers of your choice and budget will no doubt sound better than the Klipsch Cinema 600.

Just my 2cents
Have to admit. THIS!!!
Can’t believe I forgot to say that. At the very least, 2.1 with some nice ** speakers minimum will be much better.
 

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You could as well set the sub to Music preset in the SVS App (remember what SPL/Volume the sub is set to before doing this as the preset will change it, set back to what it was) . This will set certain PEQ's in the 60hz range that gives a little more of chest thump sound.

Also it might be worth setting a LPF(low pass filter) as well so the sub doesn't go completely full-range. Set it to 100hz or 90hz. You will loose certain LFE sounds but you might gain with a cleaner sound. This can help if the sub is sounding too bloated. We call this cascading crossover it might work on the soundbar, I'm sure(not certain) the DSP will protect it from blowing the drivers.

But ya as @willis7469 say's a 2.1 would be the ideal route with a 3.1 next. Then a 3.2 or 5.1

After that your hooked :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #9
If it were me I would be looking to sell the soundbar and start investing on a AVR and proper speakers. Having 2xPP3000's or a PB16 without any Room EQ seems a bit backwards IMHO.

For example it you had Audyssey with the App you could find the best location for a single sub for your MLP. You can then run the sub hot while still having clean bass as the peaks will be cut. This alone might be a better upgrade than going dual for now. Then having a nice front stage speakers of your choice and budget will no doubt sound better than the Klipsch Cinema 600.

Just my 2cents
I knew there were limitations to the soundbar/additional sub combo, but I didn't think it was this bad. I've always wanted an atmos system and wasn't planning on buying one this soon. However I did come across this sick deal from Costco and pulled the trigger yesterday. To pair with it I also bought a Denon X3700H.
Thanks for the thoughtful/honest tip!
 

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There is no automatic advantage to having 2 "lesser" subs compared to one "better" sub. If you have a spot in the room that is free of severe room modes with deep suckouts, a single "better" sub will sound better than 2 subs placed front and back (better than left/right placement 95% of the time). The "better" sub will have lower distortion that makes bass sound more distinct and less boomy that less-expensive subs. Finding out if your room has a spot with no bad problems with modes means having to move the sub all over the place, taking measurements in each location to see if one location has fewer problems with suckouts... there is NOTHING you can do about a suckout. No amount of EQ will make them go away. So the best option is to NOT place a sub where the room modes cause a suckout. A single sub can even be placed directly behind your main seat where you hear the bass before the room modes change it. Obviously, you have to use care with playback level when the sub is that close to you, but done properly, nobody will ever know the sub is like 1 foot away from the main seat. Also reduces demand on the subwoofer's amplifier since it won't have to play as loudly as it would if the sub is 10 feet or farther from the main seat.
 

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I knew there were limitations to the soundbar/additional sub combo, but I didn't think it was this bad. I've always wanted an atmos system and wasn't planning on buying one this soon. However I did come across this sick deal from Costco and pulled the trigger yesterday. To pair with it I also bought a Denon X3700H.
Thanks for the thoughtful/honest tip!
I Hope those upfiring atmos speakers work with such a high ceiling. Let us know!
 

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Generally 2 subs give you a more even bass response across the listener position BUT you can get away with one if you have placement flexability for the sub and the listener area isnt very big. Thru REW, I was able to get find a placement that provided me with a flat response across the listener area.
 
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Finding out if your room has a spot with no bad problems with modes means having to move the sub all over the place, taking measurements in each location to see if one location has fewer problems with suckouts...
Wouldn't it be easier to put the sub in the primary listening spot and make measurements at different locations in the room at the subwoofer height? You could even use your ears if you don't have a microphone and REW. Good subs aren't light. Btw, I'm quite happy with my two PC-2000 subs (not Pro) that were placed using the REW room simulator. One is near the left front corner and the other is on the left side about half way between the front and back wall.
 

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Wouldn't it be easier to put the sub in the primary listening spot and make measurements at different locations in the room at the subwoofer height? You could even use your ears if you don't have a microphone and REW. Good subs aren't light. Btw, I'm quite happy with my two PC-2000 subs (not Pro) that were placed using the REW room simulator. One is near the left front corner and the other is on the left side about half way between the front and back wall.
The bass crawl technique won't work. I'm going to show you some graphs of measurements I took moving the sub to a different location each time and then taking 3 measurements across the span of the couch; left, center, and right; the distance between center and left or right was 24" or 2ft. Since I was only interested in finding the best spot for the sub, I limited the frequency sweep from 15Hz to 200Hz, setting all speakers to small and setting the crossover on the AVR to 200 Hz for all channels.

sub_at_bike_location.jpg sub_at_left_of_sofa.jpg sub_at_right_of_sofa.jpg

The next graph is where I had the sub located based on the bass crawl technique.
sub_at_old_location.jpg

The last graph is where I have the sub now located. Notice that the response isnt quite as varied across the 3 seating locations and I gained an extra octave of bass.
sub_at_new_location.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I Hope those upfiring atmos speakers work with such a high ceiling. Let us know!

So the original plan was to put the system in my living room, but my wife said it looked too cluttered so I had to move it all to my basement. The basement ceiling is about 7ft and some change. The atmos recommends the ceiling be at least 6ft from the top of the speaker. My basement ceiling is only 4 ft from the top of the speaker so I'm not getting much of the atmos effect that I've been looking forward to :/
My reciever is dts-x capable so maybe I'll just watch movies in that mode.

I'm also getting the itch to buy a different setup. Was thinking about svs ultra towers and center or emotiva T2+ towers and their C2+ center.

Looks like I got bitten by the home theater bug and there's no going back!
 

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So the original plan was to put the system in my living room, but my wife said it looked too cluttered so I had to move it all to my basement. The basement ceiling is about 7ft and some change. The atmos recommends the ceiling be at least 6ft from the top of the speaker. My basement ceiling is only 4 ft from the top of the speaker so I'm not getting much of the atmos effect that I've been looking forward to :/
My reciever is dts-x capable so maybe I'll just watch movies in that mode.

I'm also getting the itch to buy a different setup. Was thinking about svs ultra towers and center or emotiva T2+ towers and their C2+ center.

Looks like I got bitten by the home theater bug and there's no going back!
Hi,

Since you had already bought the Klipsch package I didn't want to discern your purchase.

But if you are thinking about changing things here is how I would go about it or tips to follow.

1) Forget about Atmos for the moment and concentrate on a good 5.1 system with a second sub planned for the future. Atmos in my experience has been pretty underwhelming and is not the kind of jump that going from 3.1 to 5.1 can provide. Also if going the Atmos route the bouncing off the wall Atmos is IMHO gimmicky at best. The speaker need to be direct firing so wither in-wall or down-firing would provide a more immersive atmos experience.

2) In this hobby we all have to learn what works best for us. What sound are we looing for? So speaker choice comes down to the preference of the user. In saying this there are a list of speakers that generally gets mentioned a lot. The SVS Ultra's are one of them and I don't think you can do no wrong with this speaker choice. I have not heard the emotiva so can't comment on them but they are also considered to be good speakers. Personally I would lean towards the SVS. I think they nailed it in there Ultra range and there center speaker is very well crafted which can be overlooked by other speaker brands.

3) Take your time in this hobby. No need to go all in. The SVS Ultra Towers + Center is going to cost a fair bit. Stick with the 3.1 for the moment. Get the prime bookshelves for the surrounds later on. It's all about slowly building on what you have with quality of components being No 1 priority. Plus you will be learning all the way along knowing what might be your best move to do next and where your money will be best spent. This includes learning about room treatment which if done right can elevate your system to all new levels.

4) Go dual subs when the time is right for reasons that have been mentioned above. You have the Denon 3700 which has XT32 so Audyssey will do a good job in EQing them.

5) This hobby is all a learning experience so enjoy the ride and take it slow. You will save money in the long run by doing so. Have fun and be prepared to hit some brick walls from time to time in your quest for greatness 😁😁

It won't be long before you will be buying a Umik-1 and entering the REW rabbit hole 😂😂🤣

Hope this helps

Jim
 
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