Home Theater Forum and Systems banner

1 - 20 of 44 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Has anyone ever try to mix Black Widow with Paint On Screen 3D HD Silver Screen paint to make a screen for normal movie watching and 3D movie watching ? They claim its neutral , and I wonder if mixing the two paints together ( just like BW and C&S for Scorpion N8 ) will produce a neutral paint for a 3D screen . Who ever test this mix and finds out that it is neutral let's call it " Silver Surfer N ? 3D paint.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Or maybe cream & sugar #2 mixed with paint on screen 3d hd paint . Or even better maybe mix the paint on screen 3d paint with scorpion n8. Who knows what kind of awesome screen will come out of this experiment.
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
If you are meaning to produce a "passive" 3D screen that depends on the reflected image maintaining polarization you can forget about using any mix that contains much opaque paint at all (latex or acrylic paints). All of our current screen mixes fall into that category.

As for the Paint On Screen 3DHD mix, I have severe doubts about the viability of this mix for the purpose. It's been a while since I was to their website, things have changed there - and not for the better. They make many unsubstantiated claims for their products, some of which defy physical laws. They claim their 3DHD mix has a gain of 4.0+, but yet it does not hot spot and has a 110° viewing angle. This just doesn't fly in the real world.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
14,914 Posts
As for the Paint On Screen 3DHD mix, I have severe doubts about the viability of this mix for the purpose. It's been a while since I was to their website, things have changed there - and not for the better. They make many unsubstantiated claims for their products, some of which defy physical laws. They claim their 3DHD mix has a gain of 4.0+, but yet it does not hot spot and has a 110° viewing angle. This just doesn't fly in the real world.
This is the first I've heard of them. If I didn't know better I'd think that was Roland from avs. :scratch: Digital Paint vs Non-Digital?!?!? Oh my! :rofl2:
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
This is the first I've heard of them. If I didn't know better I'd think that was Roland from avs. :scratch: Digital Paint vs Non-Digital?!?!? Oh my! :rofl2:
Their site is now filled with bombastic hyperbole Mech so I have to agree with your assessment.

A little more than a year ago a member sent me a sample of the Paint On Screen S1 Silver screen mix, and while it looked pretty good (it didn't appear to have the abundance of mica that similar mixes have), it still didn't meet our neutrality standards; and it cost $98 a quart!

Now they are making claims that their "digital" paints are better than "non-digitial" (which I assume means everything else available) and that their paints are HD (high definition) to bring out the best performance of 1080 resolution projectors. :rubeyes::coocoo: They are even saying that their paints will display a sharper image than vinyl or fabric screens! :unbelievable: And of course all of this is done without one shred of evidence backing it up, the real reason being it isn't true! :nono:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
452 Posts
As mentioned, polarization-retention quality depends on metallic content at the surface (where light is reflected from the screen), and anything else will tend to depolarize the light.

I'm currently working on a DIY 3D screen using Gardner-Gibson Black Jack #5168 aluminum paint, as was suggested in another forum. It's worked well in sample tests (for 3D) but the final results remain to be seen. I, however, plan to swap out screens for 2D and 3D, since I believe there is an optimum for each.

Whether such a paint is neutral enough for your uses would have to be determined. I understand that it was available through WalMart (where I got mine 2 weeks ago - last gallon on shelf), but they are discontinuing carrying it. The price was right at $15/gallon.
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
Bob, I wish you luck on you DIY 3D screen endeavor. The Black Jack 5168 should work a treat if you can conquer the hot spotting :T

That aluminum paint was actually the first choice back when Bill and Mech were developing Black Widow™, but it was found to have availability problems (and still does).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
452 Posts
Bob, I wish you luck on you DIY 3D screen endeavor. The Black Jack 5168 should work a treat if you can conquer the hot spotting :T
That's my main concern. I hope I can counter hot spotting by making use of a textured underlying fabric so as to "dither" the effect. Will have to see how that goes. Any experience with spray coating the Black Jack?
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
That's my main concern. I hope I can counter hot spotting by making use of a textured underlying fabric so as to "dither" the effect.
I'm not sure what you intend to do here? :scratch:
Any experience with spray coating the Black Jack?
I assume you mean coating the aluminum screen with a clear top-coat. We have not found a clear top-coat yet that didn't yellow over time, all polyurethanes tested have done it. If you want to experiment I would suggest trying clear artist mediums or varnishes.

If you meant literally spraying the Black Jack, just thin it enough with water until your gun sprays a proper fan and the spray comes out as a fine mist and not spits and spats.

NOTE! When spraying pure aluminum paint ALWAYS wear a true respirator and not just a dust mask!!! You do NOT want that stuff in your lungs!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
452 Posts
I'm not sure what you intend to do here? :scratch:

I assume you mean coating the aluminum screen with a clear top-coat.
My plan is to front-coat a textured backing fabric with the Black Jack.

No, I'm not going to use any kind of overcoat. I was referring to the Black Jack itself. It seemed to have a pretty watery base so I wasn't sure how well it would spray coat but my thoughts were that might provide a thinner and more uniform coat than rolling it on, thus preserving some of the texture of the underlying fabric. If I do spray it, it would be outside and with the proper protective gear for sure.

Thank's for your input.
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
My plan is to front-coat a textured backing fabric with the Black Jack.
Gotcha. :T

No, I'm not going to use any kind of overcoat. I was referring to the Black Jack itself. It seemed to have a pretty watery base so I wasn't sure how well it would spray coat but my thoughts were that might provide a thinner and more uniform coat than rolling it on, thus preserving some of the texture of the underlying fabric. If I do spray it, it would be outside and with the proper protective gear for sure.

Thank's for your input.
No worries, glad to of assistance.

I have never worked with the Black Jack paint so I can't give you any help with spraying it. If you are familiar with your spray gun then just go by what viscosity has worked well in the past. Yes, spraying will work better than rolling for pure aluminum paint.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Some friends of mine asked me last week if I could sponsor a 3D projection paint screen for one of their projects (they have a film/video production company that is specialized in the production of 3D films/video's called A Million Dreams).
The screen for the project must be 25 meters wide and 12 meters high - outdoors.

Now I have started a business eight years ago around one paint which is called magnetic paint (magpaint) and was wondering if projection paint would be the next thing for us. Our company has grown into a serious very small company with seven people working, but is very internationally oriented, thanks to the internet. Projection paint might be the next thing for us.

A local paint producer has a finished 2D projection product (MB) and is willing to cooperate.
But then I came across your Forum and read that 3D projection paint is more critical on polarisation.
My friends already pointed out that polarisation is very important in avoiding headaches.
I see the product of MB therefor as totally unfit for 3D projection, because it is not tested on this.

The initial idea was to contact 'Paint on Screen - 3DHD' to see if they were interested in a cooperation, but then I found your conclusion that no projection paint delivers what it promises.

Now I have three questions:
1. Does anyone know if all the 3D paints have been tested and if there are results?
2. If not: is anyone in this forum interested in cooperating in developing and/or testing the ultimate
3D paint (we can throw in a real paint nerd)?
3. Any suggestions?
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
Hi Paintman, welcome to the forum! :wave:

First off, I don't know of any one that has tested all the various 3D screen paints available today. To make matters even worse you now have to say what 3D technique/system you are going to be using when it comes to getting the correct screen because while passive 3D (polarized glasses) requires a large amount of image polarization to be kept intact, active 3D systems (shutter glasses or colored glasses) don't require polarization, but do need as bright an image as possible without hot spotting.

Developing and testing screen paints is what we do here. :yes:

Suggestions? We might have a few. ;) While we haven't had the time to seriously get into the testing end of it, the solution to making a passive 3D mix that works is fairly straight forward; the problem is that to achieve one goal of the mix another goal must be compromised!

A passive 3D paint should have as high a content of true reflective metallic particles in it as possible to retain polarization (other substances can be used, but they aren't as efficient as real metal). So one could simply use a nice aluminum paint. The problem is that such as screen is TOO reflective and will hot spot like crazy, almost acting as a mirror. The answer to that problem would be to add enough flattening agent to get rid of the hot spotting, the problem is that by dispersing the reflected light so it no longer hot spots you are also losing polarization! And then there is the problem of also coloring the screen mix so that it is D65 neutral.

We have a few ideas on the drawing board, but haven't had the time to test them yet.

We would love to talk with your paint nerd.

That is one BIG screen you are talking about there! Converted to U.S. dimensions that screen would be 82 feet wide and almost 39.5 feet tall. It would have about a 2.08:1 aspect ratio and have 3,232 square feet of surface. To get enough light on that screen to get the recommended 16 fL of image brightness it would take 51,715 lumens measured at the screen! Those numbers simply blow my mind... I wouldn't have a clue what brand or model of projector could produce that much light, certainly nothing that would fall into the realm of "home theater projector".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Hi Harpmaker,
Thanks for the warm welcome!

And for the positive reply. I was in doubt if you would be interested, since I run a business in paint. And that might be too commercial for you.

I would like to invite my 3D friends to this forum, because they have extensive experience in filming and projecting 3D movies. And of course my paint 'nerd' (although this term is not really referring to a young person in his case; he is 54).
So they are informed as well and can contribute directly to the discussion.
Is that okay with you?

One other question: I see that everyone is using only a nickname. Should I also?

Sorry if there are now and then some spelling or grammar mistakes, but I am Dutch. Not that that is an excuse.
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
Hi Harpmaker,
Thanks for the warm welcome!

And for the positive reply. I was in doubt if you would be interested, since I run a business in paint. And that might be too commercial for you.
I'll tell it to you straight, many is the time we mix developers here at HTS have privately discussed taking our screen mixes commercial. They certainly are good enough, usually beating similar shaded commercial screens in one attribute or another (usually D65 neutrality). Our Black Widow™ mix is virtually a Stewart GrayHawk G3 in a can. The shade and gain of the screens are the same (I think BW™ is the more D65 neutral, but I would have to check that). We literally have people making BW™ screens all over the world since the mix is so easy to make (only two paints are used) and one is available locally to them (the pinkish beige house paint comprising the base) and the other is available via mail order or internet (the Auto Air Aluminum-fine). For a few folks in countries that don't use the NCS tinting system and can't match PPG-Bermuda Beige because that brand and color aren't in their local stores paint computer we have sent them, free of charge, a color sample they have taken to their paint store to have color-matched using a spectrophotometer-based color-matching system.

We haven't introduced our mixes commercially simply because we don't have the money and time it would take to start up such a company. So if we can't sell them we give them away!

One thing I will have to admit that is a bit "hard to swallow" (I hope the idiom transfers well to Dutch) is seeing commercial screen mix companies like Goo Systems (makers of Screen Goo) get rich selling inferior products that don't work as advertised (we tested several of their products and published the results here at HTS).

I would like to invite my 3D friends to this forum, because they have extensive experience in filming and projecting 3D movies. And of course my paint 'nerd' (although this term is not really referring to a young person in his case; he is 54).
So they are informed as well and can contribute directly to the discussion.
Is that okay with you?
Absolutely! And that 54 year old fella is still "wet behind the ears", I'm 55 1/2. :bigsmile:

One other question: I see that everyone is using only a nickname. Should I also?
You can if you want to, but it isn't necessary. The convention is to have a nickname (or "handle") as the main username and then give a real first name in the profile area that says it's for a nickname. If anything, I would say that you did it the "right" way. It really doesn't matter.

Sorry if there are now and then some spelling or grammar mistakes, but I am Dutch. Not that that is an excuse.
No worries! :T While we do like to see people try to use proper grammar and spelling (none of the "Uer Gr8" style contractions), we don't get bent out of shape over a few misspelled or out-of-order words, especially from someone to whom English is an alternate language.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
We haven't introduced our mixes commercially simply because we don't have the money and time it would take to start up such a company. So if we can't sell them we give them away!
Maybe I can be of assistance here: if you would like to commercialize the paint still, I would be glad to see if we can contribute to this goal in any way. Although 'give them away' is also fun.

I have invited the friends from amilliondreams to sign in as well. And our paint-chemist.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Hello everybody,

I am one of those 3D guys from A Million Dreams.
Yes, our surface will be huge, and the projectors we need have to be very strong, too. Our 3D film will be shown outside, when it is dark.
The whole project is sponsored. It is hard for our project to get such a big silverscreen sponsored since it can be used only once.So that is why we focus on painting a surface.

The plan now is to build a pile of see containers, resulting in a surface of about 27 meters x 15 meters, that is 16x9. We will either project on the ribbed containers or on another surface that we connect to the containers.

The people will see the film with 8000 circular passive glasses.

The paint we want to help develop has to be optimal for (circular) passive projection of 3D films. 2D projection on such a screen is not important at this moment.

Regards!

Ivo Broekhuizen
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
14,914 Posts
We haven't introduced our mixes commercially simply because we don't have the money and time it would take to start up such a company. So if we can't sell them we give them away!
Maybe I can be of assistance here: if you would like to commercialize the paint still, I would be glad to see if we can contribute to this goal in any way. Although 'give them away' is also fun.

I have invited the friends from amilliondreams to sign in as well. And our paint-chemist.
The only stipulations that I would have is that the paint would have to be cheap and that HTS members would get some sort of a discount. :scratch:

As for your screen, you'd definitely want something with aluminum in it for polarization - since it is passive. If you get powerful enough projectors you could probably use BW™ in a 3:1 ratio instead of the 4:1 ratio.
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
If you get powerful enough projectors you could probably use BW™ in a 3:1 ratio instead of the 4:1 ratio.
Sorry mech, BW™ won't work for passive 3D, too much TiO2 in the mix to retain any decent amount of polarization.

We seriously need to speak with their paint chemist. :yes:
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
Hello everybody,
Hi Ivo! Welcome to HTS! :wave:

I am one of those 3D guys from A Million Dreams.
Yes, our surface will be huge, and the projectors we need have to be very strong, too. Our 3D film will be shown outside, when it is dark.
The whole project is sponsored. It is hard for our project to get such a big silverscreen sponsored since it can be used only once.So that is why we focus on painting a surface.

The plan now is to build a pile of see containers, resulting in a surface of about 27 meters x 15 meters, that is 16x9. We will either project on the ribbed containers or on another surface that we connect to the containers.
Could you describe what a "see container" is?

The people will see the film with 8000 circular passive glasses.

The paint we want to help develop has to be optimal for (circular) passive projection of 3D films. 2D projection on such a screen is not important at this moment.

Regards!

Ivo Broekhuizen
My only, and very limited, polarized 3D experience has been with linear polarization. Do you know of a source (preferably in the U.S.) when I could obtain a circular polarized filter (I assume it would be a plastic sheet) so I can build an experimental device for testing? For example, I bought a sheet of linear polarized plastic and placed a section of this over an LED flashlight to simulate a projector beam and then rotate the main polarized sheet in front of my eyes while shining the polarized beam at different test screens to get some idea of how those screens would work as 3D screens.

To help determine the necessary PJ lumens needed it would help to know how much image brightness is lost due to the 3D filters. In my small amount of experimentation I have noticed about a 50% decrease in image brightness with my linear filters.

For the screen itself, it would be nice to know the maximum viewing angle needed (0° being on-axis with the PJ and the center of the screen). The narrower the maximum viewing angle needed the easier it will be to make the screen.

How close will the nearest viewer's seat be to the screen?

Will there be any street lights or other lighting that may hit the screen during viewing?
 
1 - 20 of 44 Posts
Top