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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Danny wanted me to pass this along, so I am:

Hey guys, Please pass these thoughts around if you like.

Those comparison are a ton of fun. I love doing those things.

A few criticisms that hopefully will be taken constructively (as intended).

You guys really need to step up into high end gear for that stuff. That gear is really what I consider budget or entry level gear. So you are leaving a lot on the table. For instance the imaging and sound stage can be improved by a significant margin with higher quality gear and then it will really separate which speakers convey or hinder those aspects.

Higher quality gear especially in the ability to drop the noise floor will also really help separate the speakers from one another. When the noise floor drops and the background levels from AC noise goes away then you can tell which speakers convey the dead space between the notes and which ones smear or cover that up with cheap or slow discharging caps.

You simply may not be hearing the real separating factors.

Another thing is room correction devices are in reality the kryptonite of the high end system. In a higher level system you realize that it sucks the life out of the music as it degrades the signal quality. You won't notice the negative effects with budget gear though. And it also doesn't really work. By that I mean it is placement based. Move the mic and you might as well start all over. It can improve the amplitude response below 200hz, but above that it can be disastrous. And you are not only fixing room related issues (or trying to fix room related issues), but you are correcting for speaker amplitude issues. So in a sense it is saying this is what we thought of the speakers after we had to correct them. So the evaluation has more to do with the system circumstances than the speakers.

The same can be said for in room response measurements. Those responses are room based and not speaker based. So it really says more about the room than the speakers.

If you are evaluating the speakers then post real speaker measurements (without the room response) so that real comparisons can be made. Then people really know something about the speakers themselves.

Check out this speaker shoot out that I assisted with. This is the measurement portion.

http://www.stereomojo.com/Small Spe...omojoSmallSpeakerShootout2007Measurements.htm

See the way they speakers were measured and what those measurements tell you about each speaker. That is valuable information. I don't know if you have the ability to take gated time window measurements or not. If you do have the ability and need help with it then I will be glad to help you.

Thanks,
Danny
I love Danny to death, but I suspect he would fail in a double blind test with his highend gear vs. what we were using.

I will say no more.
 

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I suspect you are correct, but perhaps there is something we are missing...
 

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Is this guy an elitist or something? You're using a $2500 preamp, a $1200 player and a $2300 amp. 6 grand worth of stuff ain't junk my friends. That's a better setup then the vast majority of people use, myself included. Was he expecting Macintosh or something? :huh:
 

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"Roomless" FR measurements would be great, a definite plus. Gated up-close measurements are not hard, but LF room effects will still be there unless you
  • find a room location that minimizes them, potentially different for each speaker
  • do it outside - even there, it is not "point-and-shoot" simple
So a second measuring mic/interface/laptop would probably be needed - doable - and easily another day of effort - doable?????
I do think we should look into this, it would be a big adder to our results. We do not have have the data for this in our current measurements.

"Better gear, lower noise floor needed:" Disagree. We have clearly demonstrated the gear has the capability of producing the superior soundstage with clear, open separating spaces. I can do it at home with really cheap gear.

Room correction can wreck a soundstage & the speaker's individuality: We already knew it and stated it. The lesser speakers benefited a little, the better ones did not. This is "take it with a grain of salt" info. OTOH, if people are going to read too much into the info, maybe it should not be published.

Should I leave out the Audyssey curves? Maybe it is too easy to misunderstand.
 

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Above 200 Hz gated close measurements with small speakers - pretty easy. Polar measurements not hard with the right fixture - I have built one. Just takes a bunch more time. Agree there is a lot more we could do here, but it would take a lot more time. Perhaps that should be my Monday after the event work, or come a day early and do it Thursday (my preference - after the event my motivation is too shot for tedious work, before the event I would enjoy it). I would need someone to help move speakers if they are towers. Glad to make it happen if we agree it is a priority.



 

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Is this guy an elitist or something? You're using a $2500 preamp, a $1200 player and a $2300 amp. 6 grand worth of stuff ain't junk my friends. That's a better setup then the vast majority of people use, myself included. Was he expecting Macintosh or something? :huh:
All due respect, I think he has a vivid imagination. Nothing like a good blind A-B test to keep you grounded.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I would absolutely keep Audyssey in the loop. TONS of our members and readers will use Audyssey. Probably the majority of readers will use it. I use it... and refuse NOT to use it, because it just flat out sounds better with it.
 

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Isn't the whole point of the "HOME audition event" do demonstrate some real-world performance in a typical installation where the room will influence the sound? It seems some are giving much more value to an extended spec sheet than a demonstration of how a speaker can interact with a human ear. I do agree with the comments that the non-room measurements are valuable for comparing speakers in a controlled manner, but I don't think most of our readers listen to music in an anechoic chamber.

I recognize that the sky's the limit in terms of "high end" gear prices, but I'm with Jim - where's the line between high end and the supposed budget gear used in this evaluation? Do I need a set of Mark Levinson amps to make the measurements of my sub-$1000 bookshelf speakers valid?
 

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Danny is caught up in the mysticism of high end. I am sure that he believes what he says, but the kool aid that most of the high end audio industry drinks is very slef serving. It conditions people to spend enormous amounts of money for reasons that have little to do with reality. That is not to say that many of the extremely expensive systems and components are not superior to less expensive products in some ways, but many are also not.

I bought a kit for some inexpensive bookshelf speakers from him for under $200 and they are very good. He probably makes more on an upgrade to change crossover components in a pair of speakers than on that complete pair that I bought. You have to condition people to sustain the market.
 

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I doubt the vast majority of folks looking at $3k/pr speakers are going to have $10k amps and magic doo-dahs abounding in their systems.
The front end used was entirely appropriate.
And I won't name names of golden ears who thought I had "best of show" sound with my uber amp and cables...when they were in fact listening to disguised refurbed $100 Audiosource amp and home depot extension cords.:)

The mind makes it real.

Now where are those impedance measurements? :gulp::)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
We could not get the gizmo to work for the impedance measurements. We worked with it for almost an hour and finally gave up. We were getting 18 ohms... 20 something ohms... maybe 100 one time. Never could get anything accurate and we followed the directions to a tee. Bad WT3 I suppose. :huh:
 

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And I won't name names of golden ears who thought I had "best of show" sound with my uber amp and cables...when they were in fact listening to disguised refurbed $100 Audiosource amp and home depot extension cords.:)
You RAT! Meaning: I LOVE IT!

The mind makes it real.
Why is that so hard for so many people to see? Do these people trust every impression they have about anything in any area of their lives? Their lives must be chaos!

Of course we all tend to be selective about what we are goofy about -- very sensible here, a total goofball over there... All but me, of course.:sn:
 
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