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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all,

I am looking to replace my old Mirage Frx-S8 which is paired with my Magnepan MMG-W's (front and rears.) I've read great reviews on the Outlaw LFM line matching well with the Maggies. I am very interested in building a smaller Sonosub to replace my old Mirage and possibly have similar quality and performace as the Outlaw LFM line. I've tried doing calculations using Sonosub.exe and looked at WinISD but it is way over my head. I am hoping someone could possibly provide the dimensions that I would need? Tube length, sealed or ported, port length etc. I assume the tube would be sealed to reduce the height and to match better with the smaller driver. I would also like to have the amp sitting flush with the tube simialr to Warrick's sub. My original pick was the Dayton Ref series and Dayton 100W plate amp from Parts Express. The room is about 18 x 24 x 7. I am sure some readers are asking why am I interested in an 8" sub. It's because I have been pleased with my little Mirage for years and the 8" compliments my little Maggie's well.

Thank you in advance.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hey guy and thanks for the responce.

Mike P.
I really like the performance of the Sonosub's. I have also read plenty of sites prior to making the decision it seems like a fairy simple DIY (first time project) as long as I have the proper dimensions.

BoomieMCT
Since I have less then 10 post I can not post the link properly. Dayton RSS210HF-4 8" Reference HF
www partsexpress com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-456
 

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I get what driver you are using - what I'm asking is about the tuning of the enclosure. First off a sonosub is any sub that uses sonotube (or similar concrete forms) as the body. Most (but not all) sonosubs are "Large and Low Tuned" (LLT) and use large sonotube as a way to easily make a big enclosure that also doesn't weigh 400 pounds. LLT subs are much larger then typical ported subs and are tuned at or just below the Fs of the driver. However you can do a more "conventional" ported tuning or even have a sealed enclosure and still have it be a sonosub.

So what I'm asking is what type of tune are you shooting for?

I haven't modelled this driver but if you are using the Dayton 8" HF my gut instinct is to use a sealed design or a "conventional" ported design because, since the Fs is close to 30 Hz, you might get group delay issues with a larger enclosure. Without modelling it though I can't be too sure.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hey BoomieMCT,

I really enjoy your posts/replyies thank for chiming in. Sorry I misunderstood you. For some reason my eyes were reading TL sub and not LLT. My intentions are not to go low like the rest of the mammoth Sonosub that are on this site. I was thinking a smaller enclosure would provide tigher bass. I was picturing a 10" diameter in a sealed enclosure probably 30-36 inches from the top and bottom end cap. If you can recommend another driver in the $100 range or possibly a 10" driver that's fine as well. I'm looking for a Fs range of around 20Hz. I'm not looking to shake my pant leg, only looking to replace my low budget Mirage.

So to answer your question not LLT is not my intent.
 

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When you say "Fs range" are you talking about a driver with an Fs of 20Hz or you want your sub to have an F3 (point where you are 3dB down) of 20Hz? Making an 8" sub with an F3 of 20Hz is pretty ambitious. A small (8") sub with only 9mm of xmax being pushed by 100 watts is not going to have a whole lot of output at 20Hz. This is why people usually make BIG subs with 15" drivers (or multiples of them) when they want to go to 20Hz or below. To use the popular Harley phrase, "there ain't no replacment for displacement."

A good generality you hear bandied about a lot is Hoffman's Iron Laws. This says you can get two of efficiency, small size or low range at the expense of the third. So to get a small enclosure that plays low you'll need to sacrifice efficiency which means you'll need a small driver with lots of excursion and a lot of power behind it. This is why small subs like the JL Fathom pull kilowatts of power and have something like 40mm (?) of xmax.

Now personally (and I could be opening up a whole new can of worms here) I think that if you are looking to reinforce your mid-bass and also get bass out of your maggies you'd be well suited to making some sort of open-baffle woofers to act as mid-bass modules that run with the mains and building a seperate sub off the LFE channel to go deep. I know Anthony has Maggies and has experimented with this problem a bit. You might want to PM him and ask him to chime in here.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
BoomieMCT

You have definitely opened up a can of worms with your last two posts. I may be forced to move some speakers I have around the house to accommodate a bigger enclosure. I have another old 8" sub in my bedroom. What would the suggested high be for the 8" inch sub project maybe I can use it in my office and build a 10" with the Maggie's. My budget is similar to your stubbies. I was hoping to build a smaller version of your Stubbies. My theory was smaller driver equals smaller tube size. The frequency doesn't have to be so low. Just looking for a sono as a replacement. The room is 18x24x7, volume hardly ever goes loud, usually played at listening level. I am not fixed on using the Dayton or and 8" driver a 10" is fine. Just looking for the best combination at a reasonable price.
 

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A few points;

1) Just to verify, you are looking at a $150ish budget and your goal is to get deep bass, augment the Maggie's low end or get bass and augment the maggie's low end (basically what is your intended x-over point)? My answer will change depending on this decision. Also, I will be honest - you aren't going to get much performance @ 20Hz for that budget. I'd either raise your budget or lower your expectations.

2) You can certainly build a smaller "Stubby" but you have to understand that efficiency and / or extension will go down as size goes down. Smaller drivers move less air and tend to be less efficient. I like the Stubby sub I made but it doesn't go to 20Hz - FR drops off pretty quick below 25Hz. Also the driver's I used only have 7-8mm of xmax so they aren't super loud. Still they are pretty cheap for what they do - especially since Home Depot started carrying 16" sonotube (real sonotube, not quik-tube) near me for a quarter what I paid before.

3) When you say "how high" are you talking about physical size or x-over point (frequency)?
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
1) Yes I have a low budget but I do NOT expect deep room shaking bass. I'm looking for more of a tight bass note rather then long and vibrating if that makes sense. If I take the Maggie's out of the equation will that change anything? I guess the x-over point would be in the lower 40ish range? ? ? My budget can be raised a little and my expectations aren't earth shattering. I really do not expect it to rattle the windows at all. I would just like some low end for music and movies.

2) I noticed people are using Elemental drivers and they are on the low price point. But the only size I see on their site is a 15" driver. I also noticed Sound Splinter has a 8" driver but I can not tell of it for car or home audio. I am just not interested in having a mammath Sono in my room.

Since I am interested in a smaller driver would it be wise to have two subs to even out the low end tones in threw out the room?

3) I was refering the total height from cap to cap (physical size)
 

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Okay I think I have a better idea of what you want to do now but I have more questions and points. Please note there is a lot of personal opinion in here and others will certainly disagree with me.

1) I just looked up the Magnepan MMGW's on their webpage and it looks like they recommend an x-over of 100Hz. Is this what you are currently doing? This can be important as some subwoofer drivers do not like to play high. My 12" Dayton Titanics are great in small enclosures but the Le/Re ratio is kind of high and they don't like to be crossed over above 80Hz. I've since heard that a good rule of thumb is Le should be half Re.

2) Assuming the x-over point is going to be that high I would recommend (my opinion) having one or two subs placed in the front of the room as the higher frequencies can be located by your ear. My opinion is that this layout will reduce that effect.

3) Given your budget you'd probably be better off with one good sub vs. two lesser ones (unless you can find some decent 8 ohm drivers and run both off one amp). I would start checking company's clearance items to see if there is anything that might be a good fit.

4) Honestly the best subs I've heard for mating with Maggies are open baffle subs. Granted these were not the wall mounted Maggies. This is yet another can o' worms.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
1) This is another reason why I am not interested in a driver over 10"'s. I kept the system crossed at 80hz but I am no audiophile. I barely heard a difference from the cross over point on my reciever. Maybe I'm tone deaf?

2) I can deal with two subs if they aren't huge. I can just add the second sub down the road to balance everything out.

3) Since I can not get what I want with an 8" driver I guess the Dayton 10" drive will do unless someone can recommend other 10" drivers to consider? I can always go up in WATTS as well. The 100w stated previously is not stamped in stone. Where are people finding these $12 deals on the Elemental drivers?

4) with kids, nephews etc always at my house I do not feel safe having a OB sub. Come to think of it an over sized sub might do the trick.

BoomieMCT, thanks for all the input that you've provided.
 

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1) It is a common misconception that larger sub drivers can't play high. Certainly there are plenty of 12" and 15" drivers that work well crossed at or above 100Hz. It is just a matter of picking the right one. That Le/Re ratio is a good guideline.

2 and 3) I was suggesting a single driver based on your budget, not because of space limitations. The $12 eD driver's you might be thinking of were the EHQS-8 drivers that eD sold out clearance a few months ago. They and the $25 EHQS-12's are gone gone gone. I don't know of any clearance subs right now as I am in the middle of a big project and won't be buying anything for a while. Perhaps someone else can chime in here?

4) No OB . . . got it. I guess you'll have to find some drivers and compare sealed and ported designs to see which gets you the performance you want in the size you want. For this you'll need to do some research and get comfortable with WinISD or Unibox. Once you get the hang of it they are both really easy to use.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Using SonoSub.exe and WinISD is what brought me to making this post. I can not make heads or tails of WinISD. But taking your suggestion I will play with SonoSub.exe using a 16" diameter tube and the 10" Dayton ported.
 

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Using SonoSub.exe and WinISD is what brought me to making this post. I can not make heads or tails of WinISD. But taking your suggestion I will play with SonoSub.exe using a 16" diameter tube and the 10" Dayton ported.
Sonosub.exe will show you how to make a sub with a known tune but it will not model the performance of said sub. Try using Unibox - it's really just an Excel spreadsheet.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
After taking in all the advice from BoomieMCT I have since changed my plans. I am considering the 12 inch Dayton Ref HF 4ohm or the Shiva-X 12" driver for my Sonosub. For now the drivers cost the same. My question is which plate amp would go good with these drivers? I do not play at high volumes and the room size is 18x24. I've been playing with WinISD and SonoSub but not seem to get a good roll off. Any suggestions on what volume and port size I should use?
 
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