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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has there been any tests to prove which of these systems to be the most effective in correcting IN ROOM RESPONCES ????
 

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I don't know of any tests, but I believe that I've read some comparisons between MCACC and Audyssey, and generally Audyssey was a little better.

IMHO, Audyssey is a little more mature and better developed.

Not familiar with YPAO.
 

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Hello,
Where Audyssey really shines is on the lowest frequencies. MCACC stops working around 60hz and last I checked YPAO does not go much lower (not completely positive, but pretty sure)

Audyssey MultEQ, MultEQ XT, and MultEQ XT32 all place a priority on the Subwoofer Channel. The AVR's that have been released with XT32 have also included Audyssey SubEQ which is fantastic.

Even discounting what Audyssey does on the Subwoofer Channel, the FIR Filters used by Audyssey work on both Time and Phase irregularities. In addition Audyssey was Developed by THX Founder Tomlinson Holman and Chris Kyriakakis at the USC's famed Digital Media Center where they are/were both Professors. Audyssey really is cutting edge and garnered countless Awards and Accolades. Note that 2EQ does not work on the Subwoofer Channel.
Cheers,
JJ
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hello,
Where Audyssey really shines is on the lowest frequencies. MCACC stops working around 60hz and last I checked YPAO does not go much lower (not completely positive, but pretty sure)

Audyssey MultEQ, MultEQ XT, and MultEQ XT32 all place a priority on the Subwoofer Channel. The AVR's that have been released with XT32 have also included Audyssey SubEQ which is fantastic.

Even discounting what Audyssey does on the Subwoofer Channel, the FIR Filters used by Audyssey work on both Time and Phase irregularities. In addition Audyssey was Developed by THX Founder Tomlinson Holman and Chris Kyriakakis at the USC's famed Digital Media Center where they are/were both Professors. Audyssey really is cutting edge and garnered countless Awards and Accolades. Note that 2EQ does not work on the Subwoofer Channel.
Cheers,
JJ

What I don't understand is why there are so many posts about people NOT likeing what Audessey has done?
From decreasing bass , ...brightness,...muffled sound ect??
 

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What I don't understand is why there are so many posts about people NOT likeing what Audessey has done?
From decreasing bass , ...brightness,...muffled sound ect??
Because it's a mature well performing technology. Not perfect, but does what it's designed to do exceedingly well. XT32 has more processor power and is even better at the corrections it does.

Many of the critics have rooms that no electronic solution can fix -- and they don't want a flat EQ. Some of the biggest critics don't like the fact that Audyssey corrects it to sound like it should - rather than boomy and what not.

It's an age old debate.

My suggestion is run Audyssey for a couple months, then turn it off. You'll be impressed with how bad it sounds without Audyssey running.
 

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Hello,
There are also many opportunities for User Error when it comes to Microphone Setup, making sure the Room is a dead silent as possible, etc...
Cheers,
JJ
 

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I have only had experience with Audyssey and MCACC.

Jack is correct in that MCACC doesn't really do anything to the sub channel so added EQ is needed there. This is only my experience with the Pio Elite VSX-94TX which I still have in a small system, don't know if the latest offering from Pioneer have a more advanced MCACC which address's the subs.

What Audyssey's XT and XT32 do for the bass is outstanding, didn't personally like normal MultEQ but that could have been that I didn't know proper set-up back then.

I wasn't a big fan of either MCACC or Audyssey when I first tried them until someone informed me on the proper set-up and then I was impressed. A tri-pod or better yet boom mic stand is critical as well as proper placement. Before I would just rest whichever mic I was using on the headrest on the MLP and with Audyssey did only 1 measurement even though I could do more. Switching both EQ's on/off told me that they both stunk but it turned out it was my set-up that stunk.
I actually did a proper calibration with MCACC and was surprised at how good my main speakers sounded with it on, I used a Velodyne SMS-1 for my subs. I immediately invited a friend over who had the same receiver and hated MCACC as well and even he couldn't believe the difference and how good it made my speakers sound. It was very easy to hear the improvements and even with the small satellite speakers the MCACC receiver is hooked up to now they are unlistenable without MCACC.

I got used to running MCACC then switching to my SMS-1 to EQ the subs as I knew MCACC didn't address the sub channel. When I first tried Audyssey MultEQ XT again after knowing the tricks to a good calibration and ran 6 mic positions I switched to the SMS-1 for the sub channels. What I saw shocked me as I didn't have to make my normal cuts in the 50hz range and general tweaking, in fact I had never seen my sub response look so good. If I wasn't a DIY sub guy and constant tweaker I would have taken the SMS-1 out of the system right then, it really isn't needed anymore.

I don't have any experience with Ypao but then I have never heard much talk of it being good or bad, I suppose if it was really good there would be a buzz.

My first choice is Audyssey XT or XT32 but if you already have a bass EQ like the SMS-1, BFD or something like that the MCACC is good. I have never actually owned a receiver longer than my Pioneer Elite VSX-94TX and I have owned a LOT of receivers in the past including the Denon 4311 just a few months ago.

There is a difference in Audyssey implementation between Onkyo and Denon IMO. I currently have the Onkyo 5508 which has XT32 and had a Denon 4311 which also has XT32. I prefer the Onkyo as for some reason it does a better job on my subs and the Onkyo 886 before that with only XT did a better job as well. With the Denon I had to make some adjustments with my SMS-1 but with both Onkyo's it was needed which I find odd.

I hope my blathering on helped:gulp:
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I have only had experience with Audyssey and MCACC.

Jack is correct in that MCACC doesn't really do anything to the sub channel so added EQ is needed there. This is only my experience with the Pio Elite VSX-94TX which I still have in a small system, don't know if the latest offering from Pioneer have a more advanced MCACC which address's the subs.

What Audyssey's XT and XT32 do for the bass is outstanding, didn't personally like normal MultEQ but that could have been that I didn't know proper set-up back then.

I wasn't a big fan of either MCACC or Audyssey when I first tried them until someone informed me on the proper set-up and then I was impressed. A tri-pod or better yet boom mic stand is critical as well as proper placement. Before I would just rest whichever mic I was using on the headrest on the MLP and with Audyssey did only 1 measurement even though I could do more. Switching both EQ's on/off told me that they both stunk but it turned out it was my set-up that stunk.
I actually did a proper calibration with MCACC and was surprised at how good my main speakers sounded with it on, I used a Velodyne SMS-1 for my subs. I immediately invited a friend over who had the same receiver and hated MCACC as well and even he couldn't believe the difference and how good it made my speakers sound. It was very easy to hear the improvements and even with the small satellite speakers the MCACC receiver is hooked up to now they are unlistenable without MCACC.

I got used to running MCACC then switching to my SMS-1 to EQ the subs as I knew MCACC didn't address the sub channel. When I first tried Audyssey MultEQ XT again after knowing the tricks to a good calibration and ran 6 mic positions I switched to the SMS-1 for the sub channels. What I saw shocked me as I didn't have to make my normal cuts in the 50hz range and general tweaking, in fact I had never seen my sub response look so good. If I wasn't a DIY sub guy and constant tweaker I would have taken the SMS-1 out of the system right then, it really isn't needed anymore.

I don't have any experience with Ypao but then I have never heard much talk of it being good or bad, I suppose if it was really good there would be a buzz.

My first choice is Audyssey XT or XT32 but if you already have a bass EQ like the SMS-1, BFD or something like that the MCACC is good. I have never actually owned a receiver longer than my Pioneer Elite VSX-94TX and I have owned a LOT of receivers in the past including the Denon 4311 just a few months ago.

There is a difference in Audyssey implementation between Onkyo and Denon IMO. I currently have the Onkyo 5508 which has XT32 and had a Denon 4311 which also has XT32. I prefer the Onkyo as for some reason it does a better job on my subs and the Onkyo 886 before that with only XT did a better job as well. With the Denon I had to make some adjustments with my SMS-1 but with both Onkyo's it was needed which I find odd.

I hope my blathering on helped:gulp:

Thank you for that post ,..very informative. From all my reading, AUDYSSEY does seem to have the upper hand. ...Now it seems from the posts that i've been reading that ONKYO'S latest Gen are having more problems than usual ?? Correct me if i'm wrong ??
 

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Thank you for that post ,..very informative. From all my reading, AUDYSSEY does seem to have the upper hand. ...Now it seems from the posts that i've been reading that ONKYO'S latest Gen are having more problems than usual ?? Correct me if i'm wrong ??
Hello,
There is a x08 Failure Thread on another Forum that has generated a great deal of controversy. However, if you look at the Owners Threads at that same Forum, you will see that very few Owners are actually affected.

The x08's on the whole are actually quite reliable and even better there have been next to no HDMI Board Failures. The issue that has been mentioned is a batch that had a bad Serial Cable where the AVR becomes unresponsive to the Remote Control, switches Sources by itself, and eventually the buttons on the Front Panel and the RC do not work.

However, Onkyo has a fix for the issue, are covering the Repair whether or not you are in Warranty, and are not even requiring Proof of Purchase. This means you do not even need to be the Original Owner or have Purchased it from an Authorized Dealer.

This issue is far less serious than HDMI Board Failures when you are out of Warranty as the Repair costs around 1000 Dollars and if in Warranty, Proof of Purchase from an Authorized Dealer is required.

On this Forum, very few if any Members have had this issue arise. The Failure Thread is being stoked on by Fanboys of Denon primarily it seems. I have a TX-NR3008 and absolutely adore it.
Cheers,
JJ
 

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I have had my Onkyo 5508 for over 2 months now and it has been great.

To be honest though if your system is all about movies then I would save some $ and get a Onkyo 886 pre-pro. Even though the 5508 is much better for music the 886 is it's equal for movies, If I was movies only I would sell the 5508 and use the 886. I am keeping the 886 as it has been the most stable and great sounding movie pre-pro's I have had in awhile, I just don't like it for music. I plan on making a second system around the 886 and probably retiring the Pioneer Elite 94.

While I have had the Onkyo 886 I have also had the Denon 4311 and Marantz AV7005 an all of those were sold to keep the 886. The Denon and Marantz were better for music but the 886 just had a more dynamic movie presentation that I couldn't give up even though I really wanted to like the Denon and Marantz better.

I have had the Integra 9.8 which is the same as the Onkyo 885 prior to the 886 but would pass on those as I never listen at reference levels so Dynamic EQ really makes a difference for me.

If your worried about the current crop of 08 Onkyo's then I can tell you that I have never noticed much complaints at all about the 886. I have had 0 problems with my 886, it has been a rock of stability. I wouldn't shy away from the current Onkyo's either though, just make sure you buy them from an authorized dealer so the warranty will be intact.
 

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Hello,
In addition you can purchase 2 more years of Warranty from ShopOnkyo bringing it up to 3 or 4 years depending on whether it is an A Stock or B Stock.

I prefer the ShopOnkyo Extended Warranty as it is the same as the Factory Warranty and in the event the AVR needs to be Repaired, you will not need to worry about a 3rd Party Company giving you grief about the Repair or where you take it to.
Moreover, should it need to be replaced, you will get the latest Model and not best case a Check that often includes depreciation. For the 3008, it costs 84 Dollars. It is less for less expensive Models.
Cheers,
JJ
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I have had my Onkyo 5508 for over 2 months now and it has been great.

To be honest though if your system is all about movies then I would save some $ and get a Onkyo 886 pre-pro. Even though the 5508 is much better for music the 886 is it's equal for movies, If I was movies only I would sell the 5508 and use the 886. I am keeping the 886 as it has been the most stable and great sounding movie pre-pro's I have had in awhile, I just don't like it for music. I plan on making a second system around the 886 and probably retiring the Pioneer Elite 94.

While I have had the Onkyo 886 I have also had the Denon 4311 and Marantz AV7005 an all of those were sold to keep the 886. The Denon and Marantz were better for music but the 886 just had a more dynamic movie presentation that I couldn't give up even though I really wanted to like the Denon and Marantz better.

I have had the Integra 9.8 which is the same as the Onkyo 885 prior to the 886 but would pass on those as I never listen at reference levels so Dynamic EQ really makes a difference for me.

If your worried about the current crop of 08 Onkyo's then I can tell you that I have never noticed much complaints at all about the 886. I have had 0 problems with my 886, it has been a rock of stability. I wouldn't shy away from the current Onkyo's either though, just make sure you buy them from an authorized dealer so the warranty will be intact.
I am not familiar with the 886 pre pro ,What is the diff between lets say (tx nr- 709 or 809 ). Could not find 886 on the web site?? I never listen at REF levels also ,..so i should also get Dynamic EQ ??
 

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I am not familiar with the 886 pre pro ,What is the diff between lets say (tx nr- 709 or 809 ). Could not find 886 on the web site?? I never listen at REF levels also ,..so i should also get Dynamic EQ ??
Here is a link to the Pro model which has the rack mounts but I have the normal PR-SC886 not the PR-SC886P which is in the link:

http://www.onkyopro.com/model.cfm?m=PR-SC886P&class=Preamplifier&p=i

I am just recommending the 886 as I have experience with it and mainly use pre-pro's, I don't have much experience with receivers. I am also recommending it as I have seen them sell in the $700 range used or less which is a little more than a comparable 885 but I think the extra $100 or so is worth it for Dynamic EQ. The Onkyo models are essential the same as the Integra models but tend to sell for much less on the used market.

I like the recommendation for the 3008 receiver as well and was contemplating getting that to replace both my Pioneer Elite and 886 but price wise it will still cost more than the 886 used. The 3008 adds XT32 which is a nice feature for the price but in my experience I can get the 886 to sound just as good for movies, for music I bet the 3008 is better.

I never go past -10 on the volume, in fact it is locked there so you can't go past it so in my case Dynamic EQ really fleshes out the surrounds and adds a welcome punch in the bass when levels are lower. I actually normally listen in the -15 range at the most. If your in the same volume range then I really think you will enjoy what Dynamic EQ brings. I think the 886 also has THX Loudness + which is supposed to be the same but I have never really compared the 2.
 

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I just browsed audiogon and saw 3 886's for $700. There is also a Onkyo 5507 there as well for $999 but all that really adds is Audyssey DSX for wide or height channels which you may or may not want. I did just sneak a peak behind my 886 and 5508 and noticed that the 886 only has 4 hdmi inputs while the 5508 has 7 on the back and 1 on the front for a total of 8 hdmi inputs if that matter to you.
I am not sure how many HDMI inputs the 5507 has but I would personally skip on the 5507 and either get a 886 or 5508. I did have a Integra DHC-80.1 which is the same as the 5507 but had horrible relay clicks and occasional pops in my speakers so I got rid of it really quick. Not sure if that same thing affected the 5507's but the 80.1 is the only intergra/onkyo product that ever gave me trouble.
 

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I am not familiar with the 886 pre pro ,What is the diff between lets say (tx nr- 709 or 809 ). Could not find 886 on the web site?? I never listen at REF levels also ,..so i should also get Dynamic EQ ??
Hello,
The 885 and 886 were the first two editions of Onkyo's SSP's that rewrote the rules about SSP's. Prior to the PR-SC885 and Integra DTC 9.8, SSP's cost thousands more than AVR's while almost always being behind in respect to Features.

This became particularly acute when HDMI became the de facto standard for AV. This caused a Reckoning among Independent AV Companies that Built SSP's. It took Theta, who was considered the pinnacle of SSP's. almost 7 years to finally bring HDMI to the ultra expensive Casablanca Processor.

I think getting the most recent Onkyo SSP that you can afford should be the way to go. AC4L currently has the PR-SC5508 for $1699. However, you might want to call your local Onkyo Pro or Integra Dealer and see what kind of deals they might offer as these SSP's are soon to be replaced with Industrial Design based of the new x09 Onkyo AVR's.

When my Onkyo TX-NR3008 was In Transit I considered selling it unopened and getting the Integra 80.2. I spoke to a woman named Cathy who is an Integra Dealer in Florida who offered me an amazing deal on an 80.2, Had I not been without an HDMI AVR for almost 2 Months, I might have waited out selling the 3008, but my 3008 was actually Custom Built from Onkyo HQ (long story that I hope to tell sometime) and between that and how much I missed my Dual Subwoofers and Audyssey, I ended up keeping it.

Just to make sure you are entirely clear, these SSP's have no internal amplification. They are Preamps only. Provided you have at least 5 Channels of Outboard Amplification, this would be an excellent choice.
However, if you wish to run Audyssey DSX or other 7 or 9 Channel Surround Modes and do not have enough Channels of Amplification, an AVR is your best and only option.

I figure you know that these Models do not have built in amplification, but as you asked what the differences were, I figured I would make double sure that you were clear on this matter.
Cheers,
JJ
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
I just browsed audiogon and saw 3 886's for $700. There is also a Onkyo 5507 there as well for $999 but all that really adds is Audyssey DSX for wide or height channels which you may or may not want. I did just sneak a peak behind my 886 and 5508 and noticed that the 886 only has 4 hdmi inputs while the 5508 has 7 on the back and 1 on the front for a total of 8 hdmi inputs if that matter to you.
I am not sure how many HDMI inputs the 5507 has but I would personally skip on the 5507 and either get a 886 or 5508. I did have a Integra DHC-80.1 which is the same as the 5507 but had horrible relay clicks and occasional pops in my speakers so I got rid of it really quick. Not sure if that same thing affected the 5507's but the 80.1 is the only intergra/onkyo product that ever gave me trouble.

I also rarely listen below -15, so Dynamic EQ would also be benificial. My buget was thinking more towards the ( TX-NR709 ) which has EQ XT and Dynamic EQ . maybe if i move up to the 3008 with XT32,.. i would'nt need a BFD or MiniDSP for the SUB EQ ??

Just to make sure the 886 is a processer and also needs an AMP right ???
 

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Nice write-up Jack.

Normally I would agree with you on getting the latest pre-pro/receiver but if I didn't have the 886 and 5508 in the rack at the same time I would not be recommending the 886, I just think it's an outstanding value at $700 or less. The main thing it is missing from the 5508 is less HDMI inputs, Audyssey XT32, DSX, PLIIZ and the SQ for music. Every time I swap cables back to the 886 I am always surprised at how good it sounds for movies and TV though, I never listen to music on it though as I can't stand it for music.

I have a source for an even better price on the 5508, brand new in the box from an authorized retailer, PM me if you want the details. Still it is more than double the price of a used 886 but it's not twice as good UNLESS you value music. I personally would just get the 886 and wait for the 5509 to come out which will then drop the prices on the used 5508's that people are dumping to upgrade. Just like buying a used car, let someone else take the depreciation hit. I bought my 5508 new but I am not that smart:yes: The 886, 80.1 and 9.8 were all bought used though.

I would probably even pass on the 5508 and just get the 3008, Amazon has them for about $1,300 shipped right now.......must fight temptation and deliver my bank account from evil:devil: To be honest, with the 08 series I would only buy new though, most have not had problems but it would not be good to buy a used one then run into problems a few months in and no warranty.
 

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I also rarely listen below -15, so Dynamic EQ would also be benificial. My buget was thinking more towards the ( TX-NR709 ) which has EQ XT and Dynamic EQ . maybe if i move up to the 3008 with XT32,.. i would'nt need a BFD or MiniDSP for the SUB EQ ??

Just to make sure the 886 is a processer and also needs an AMP right ???
With the 886 and 5508 you would definitely need amps, they are pre-amp processors so they do not have there own built in amplification like receivers do.

I just looked up the 709 and it does include XT which is the minimum I would recommend. If it has everything you need then that should be the one you get. The 3008 is more than twice the price but if your not going to use the added features then it would be a waste unless they are features you can grow into.

The 3008 does have the more sophisticated XT32 with SubEQ. I have both XT32 in the 5508 and normal XT in the 886 and I can't say I notice enough of a difference to justify the added cost. The XT in the 886 is really what shocked me about Audyssey in the sub channel as my Velodyne SMS-1 sub-eq was no longer needed. I have never used a Onkyo receiver but I can't imagine Audyssey XT wouldn't do just as good a job as there pre-pro's.

I always look at it this way, if I can spend $1,300 on a new receiver but can get all that I need for less than $700 then I have $600 available to make more improvements in my system like room treatments, another sub or whatever.

The thing is you know what you need and what you might need in the near future. If you tend to keep your receiver's for a long time and know that the added features of the 3008 will come in handy down the line then that's the right choice. If you know that the 709 offers all the features you will ever want then save your money. As far as which will sound better, who knows? If I was in the market I am crazy enough to just buy them both and decide in my own system but then again crazy is my last name:bigsmile:
 

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I also rarely listen below -15, so Dynamic EQ would also be benificial. My buget was thinking more towards the ( TX-NR709 ) which has EQ XT and Dynamic EQ . maybe if i move up to the 3008 with XT32,.. i would'nt need a BFD or MiniDSP for the SUB EQ ??

Just to make sure the 886 is a processer and also needs an AMP right ???
I thought I answered it with the mention of not needing my SMS-1 subEQ after using Audyssey XT but when looking back noticed I was not clear. IMO you will not need a BFD or MiniDSP with either XT or XT32, these both do an outstanding job on subwoofers as long as you follow the directions and do a proper calibration.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I thought I answered it with the mention of not needing my SMS-1 subEQ after using Audyssey XT but when looking back noticed I was not clear. IMO you will not need a BFD or MiniDSP with either XT or XT32, these both do an outstanding job on subwoofers as long as you follow the directions and do a proper calibration.
Thank you very much MIKE for answering so many questions, I really appreciate it !!
Trying to get the best AV reciever for my money is very difficult to figure out, because so many people have different opinions ??. I value your opinion since you have experienced diff models. I think it is very easy to get caught up always wanting better. I think a model like TX NR 709 would satisfy my needs with "Dynamic EQ "for my listening level similar to yours ,and MULTI EQ XT for SUB EQ.

THANKS again MIKE !
 
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