[Audixium]

I'm on the fence. Can you check out my 150" build at "the other place" and let me know if there is a shade of BW that might work for my situation? I'm being told Silver Fire Lite or S-I-L-V-E-R....

 

[mechman]

Re: Black Widow Beta Testers Needed

Audixium,

Welcome to the Shack! How'd you find us?

Give us the specifics - pj, throw distance, room color, ambient light, etc. Have you done a baseline yet?

Find out what the RGB, xyY, and L*ab values are for SF and SF-Lite. Better yet take a look at this. Three separate Silver Fire samples from three completely different people.

These three were all using the same ingredients and all three individuals used syringes for measuring. One is way out of whack. Another is just out of whack. And the third is just whacked. I believe we're now on the third or fourth iteration Is it the ton of mica? Could be. Is it all the yellowing polyurethane? Could be. My money is on that it was mixed by eye within the limited realm available at the time. We've moved beyond that.

Outside of MississippiMan posting pictures of clients screens (which I thought was against their rules but apparently rules rarely apply there unless it's within Liquiscreen's best interest), who really has shown any shots of Silver Fire? Mynym doesn't count cause he's using Black Flame which was the first edition. For the life of me I cannot recall any but MMan's over-exposed/over saturated shots with washed out blacks when there's a hint of ambient light. Is anyone still posting Black Widow shots there? Last I looked there were a lot of happy campers there. And from my recollection of his BW/SF shootout the majority liked BW over SF. And he did just about everything wrong BW-wise.

If you want the best N9 screen at this time I'd suggest Cream & Sugar. It's neutral. The ingredients used do not exhibit any color shifting. And you can roll it. :T

PS. I snuck a peek! Yes! I do feel icky! :rofl: Nice frame! How much does it weigh?

 

[wbassett]

Re: Black Widow Beta Testers Needed

I'm on the fence. Can you check out my 150" build at "the other place" and let me know if there is a shade of BW that might work for my situation? I'm being told Silver Fire Lite or S-I-L-V-E-R....

How far back will the projector be mounted? That makes a difference too. At a conservative distance of 17' you'll have around 12fL of brightness at the screen that size. That's ideal for a dedicated theater setup with lights out viewing, but that's about it. A typical gray screen (even most affordable commercial screens) are around .8-.8.5 in gain, which will drop you down to 9fL or less.

You have one of the situations where gain is needed, but still be careful. Too much gain and not only does the viewing cone decrease but color shift starts to occur as you move out of the sweet spot.

You're going to want to stay with a lighter screen because of the enormous size you have. C&S is a great N9 alternative and it has the benefit of being neutral and doesn't require being sprayed, although with a cloth screen you probably will want to spray it.

Black Widow can be sprayed, but the original mix is going to be too dark for you. It does have some gain to it but I don't think enough to make you happy and give the punch you'll want. The BWN8 and BWN8.5 versions are close to being ready for beta testing, the N9 still needs some work.

Harp has the ability to adjust his setup for a wide variety of brightness and can probably simulate the 12fL you'll be around with a unity gain white screen. Then he can test out the BWN8.5 and evaluate if it looks like it would be bright enough or not.

First things first though, make sure you calibrate to the white screen that you have now so you can get a baseline. This way you'll know how it looks on a unity gain screen and then when you try a different alternative you can tell if you improved things or not.

Question... how often do you plan on watching during the day or with lights on?

 

[Audixium]

Re: Black Widow Beta Testers Needed

Thanks guys for the info - I really do appreciate it!

Mech - How did I hear? Friday Night Chat thread elsewhere. Even did the chat session. You guys said I was crazy for going so big. I read about C&S today - might be the ticket.

Bill - PJ is around 16', maybe 16'6". I have DVE and will calibrate to the current BOC. Did you see the post elsewhere? I added pics of the room during the day. So if it is high noon I won't be firing up the PJ. Instead I'll watch the 46" HDTV. However, if it is Bronco time I'll kill the window bleed as much as possible - understanding my preference for size over quality. Sports isn't so bad during the day.

It sounds like I should spray C&S with the touted Wagner. This will be my first painted screen. Any caveats?

 

[wbassett]

Re: Black Widow Beta Testers Needed

Yeah... practice! Before doing anything on the screen itself practice on smaller things until you are totally comfortable with spraying.

 

[mechman]

Re: Black Widow Beta Testers Needed

Thanks guys for the info - I really do appreciate it!

It sounds like I should spray C&S with the touted Wagner. This will be my first painted screen. Any caveats?

I recently purchased one and I have to say that it's the first Wagner that I've bought that didn't go right back into the box! It works well and it's much easier to clean than my compressor HVLP setup. And it's also much quieter! :hush:

Practice a bit with it first. Always keep it perpendicular to the screen. And spray beyond the edges.

Also get a tripod light set up off to one side. It helps you to see what's going on with your spraying.

I have something like one of these.

 

[Audixium]

Re: Black Widow Beta Testers Needed

Ok - so I'll practice on my garage wall as well as do some test panels like Harp suggests in the C&S thread (I'm sure you guys have too in numerous places).

Are you sure N9 will be dark enough? I've been fairly happy with the taupe wall you see in the pictures towards the bottom of my thread at the other place :blink:. That is, until I hung the BOC next to it at night. Then I said :coocoo::foottap::time-out::dontknow::nono::dizzy::surrender:, EVERYTHING IS DIRTY!

Any idea what the gain is for C&S? BW8.5?

 

[mechman]

Re: Black Widow Beta Testers Needed

Ok - so I'll practice on my garage wall as well as do some test panels like Harp suggests in the C&S thread (I'm sure you guys have too in numerous places).

Are you sure N9 will be dark enough? I've been fairly happy with the taupe wall you see in the pictures towards the bottom of my thread at the other place :blink:. That is, until I hung the BOC next to it at night. Then I said :coocoo::foottap::time-out::dontknow::nono::dizzy::surrender:, EVERYTHING IS DIRTY!

Any idea what the gain is for C&S? BW8.5?

Expect some gain readings very soon! But I'll have to get some Craft Smart stuff first. We've been working on gain readings for quite some time and as of tomorrow I will have everything I need. I can even get gain readings from the three separate SF samples I have at my disposal. :T

I still don't know what pj you're suing... I'll take a look around and see if I can find it. Regardless though, going as large as you're going I think you'll want the extra fL.

Also, I'm gonna spin all this stuff into a new thread as it's a tad bit off topic here in this one. :T

 

[Harpmaker]

Hi Audixium,

I too welcome you to HTS!

I would like to add that of the three Silver Fire samples mech showed spectral charts for, two of those were batches (the bottom two that share a single chart) used to make full-size screens. To be honest, those users were not happy with their Silver Fire screens. If you will notice, those mixes were more neutral than the SF mix used in the first chart. The two bottom mixes were color-corrected by eye by the users; one got it to neutral and the other was on the way.

Try Silver Fire if you have a mind to; I'm of the opinion that DIY screens are all about finding what YOU like. Just be aware the it is THE most difficult to make, and expensive, screen mix I have seen and it requires measuring small amounts of very thick paints. Also, the formula calls for making almost a gallon of paint by the time all the ingredients are put together (around 100 oz. IIRC), which is way more than most normal screens need, but seeing you're going for a 150" screen you might need more.

I also want to say that I have mixed batches of both Silver Fire and RS-MaxxMudd-LL and both mixes have hotspotted for me with my projector setup. I made them using the official formulae using syringes to get ingredients measured to 0.5ml. I even made two separate batches of Silver Fire's "color component" to make sure I got it right - both matched in color.

Black Widow came after the mixes at "the other place". It is simple to make (only two components), simple to apply (roll or spray), inexpensive (even if the Auto Air Aluminum-fine has to be mail ordered the total comes to around $40 for 40 oz.) and was designed by folks that know color science and use scientific protocols and equipment to back up what they say. Oh yeah, it also works!:bigsmile:

Cream&Sugar has been recommended to you, this mix was designed in a similar way to Black Widow. If you have Michael's Crafts and Sherwin-Williams stores near you the mix is a very easy and inexpensive one to try. If you want a darker screen than C&S gives you (it is almost white) you don't need to prime the screen again, just paint over the C&S.

 

[mechman]

Is it the Epson Powerlite Home Cinema 720? I see Bill already threw the fL numbers at you.

I'd guess C&S is around 1.0 maybe 1.2. Won't know for a couple days though.

Looking at your pics, are you going to have people sitting on that couch watching this? On the end closest to the screen? If so, I'd definitely stay away from SF and silver. Those applications have a high concentration of mica and polyurethane in them and it results in viewing cone issues. I'll know more about those applications viewing cone problems in a day or so as well. But as someone who has these applications on a panel, I can guarantee the person(s) sitting on the couch will not see the same image as those sitting within the cone.

 

[Audixium]

Is it the Epson Powerlite Home Cinema 720? I see Bill already threw the fL numbers at you.

I'd guess C&S is around 1.0 maybe 1.2. Won't know for a couple days though.

Looking at your pics, are you going to have people sitting on that couch watching this? On the end closest to the screen? If so, I'd definitely stay away from SF and silver. Those applications have a high concentration of mica and polyurethane in them and it results in viewing cone issues. I'll know more about those applications viewing cone problems in a day or so as well. But as someone who has these applications on a panel, I can guarantee the person(s) sitting on the couch will not see the same image as those sitting within the cone.

Ok, so spinning this off totally confused me at first. How did I get subscribed to a new thread, that someone else started, with my handle in the title? :scratch: Thanks for doing it though!

Yes - that is my pj.

The only seat ever used on that couch (for viewing) is the one farthest from the screen. My son actually prefers sitting there (~11' from screen) and laying down as opposed to using one of the recliners that are at about 17'. The eyeballs in the recliner on the right side are about in line with the right edge of the screen, I'm guessing about 30 degrees off center?

Since this will be my first screen painting experience I'll be spraying C&S. Won't be this weekend - we're taking a little trip to the mountains. Maybe the following week.

Thanks again!

 

[Audixium]

Hi Audixium,

I too welcome you to HTS!

Thanks!

...To be honest, those users were not happy with their Silver Fire screens.

Duly noted.

...Just be aware the it is THE most difficult to make, and expensive, screen mix I have seen and it requires measuring small amounts of very thick paints.

I'm definitely shooting for simple.

Also, the formula calls for making almost a gallon of paint by the time all the ingredients are put together (around 100 oz. IIRC), which is way more than most normal screens need, but seeing you're going for a 150" screen you might need more.

How much would I need to mix up with C&S?

If you have Michael's Crafts and Sherwin-Williams stores near you the mix is a very easy and inexpensive one to try.

Both are within my normal driving patterns - this is the route :rofl: I plan to take.

If you want a darker screen than C&S gives you (it is almost white) you don't need to prime the screen again, just paint over the C&S.

Well, considering that I NEVER wanted to paint a screen :wits-end: I hope I don't end up in some vicious cycle of increasingly darker shades, then increasingly lighter shades, etc.

So, I'm curious how much C&S would assist in moderate ambient light situations. To the point - is it going to be worth my time?

 

[Harpmaker]

First, "Is it (C&S) going to be worth my time?"; I don't know. If the calculator at ProjectorCentral is correct, you have enough lumens to use a darker mix, imo. C&S is darker than a white screen, and even a the smallest tad darker than the BOC material I have, but it isn't a real ambient light solution.

If I were in your shoes I would try the latest N8.5 version of Black Widow, but this mix is still in testing; so that would depend on how adventurous you are.

If I were spraying a screen that big I would want to have about 68 ounces of paint (I use about 4 ounces to spray a 1x4 foot test panel). It's better to have too much paint than too little.

If it would be feasible to do so, I would recommend making test panels of the various screen solutions (I use regular 1/8" hardboard, it's cheap and easy to find) and see how they look in your theater. The only thing I would NOT do is directly compare lighter screens to darker screens at the same time; you don't get the true effect of either test panel when that is done.

 

[wbassett]

Re: Black Widow Beta Testers Needed

Ok - so I'll practice on my garage wall as well as do some test panels like Harp suggests in the C&S thread (I'm sure you guys have too in numerous places).

Are you sure N9 will be dark enough? I've been fairly happy with the taupe wall you see in the pictures towards the bottom of my thread at the other place :blink:. That is, until I hung the BOC next to it at night. Then I said :coocoo::foottap::time-out::dontknow::nono::dizzy::surrender:, EVERYTHING IS DIRTY!

Any idea what the gain is for C&S? BW8.5?

If it looked good on the taupe wall then brace yourself for C&S!

Here's the deal and then some advice...
12fL is the recommended minimum. I believe FL is the min for THX standards. Now that doesn't mean at 10fL you won't see anything. This is why I highly recommend that people do a baseline calibration to a white reference screen. So before you do anything else, calibrate to the white BOC before painting it. That way you'll know without any doubt whether the image is better or worse. My bet is it looks much better now than on the taupe wall. I'll also guarantee if I told you to get some Winter Mist mixed up with Valspar Flat Enamel or better yet Valspar Signature Series in the Matte finish you'd be drooling... but by bypassing the white screen baseline calibration you'll never know if it looks as good as possible. Many people don't tell others to do a baseline calibration and I really have to question why. I have my feelings on the reason but I won't go there.

Okay the advice. I see a couch sitting to the right. Do you have any seats directly in front of the screen perpendicular to it? At the size screen you have, be careful with screens that are mica based to produce gain. First of all mica refracts and causes color shifting. That's just a fact of mica, I'm not picking any fights with anyone about that. If you combine that with a screen that's already shifting colors, things get even worse. Now for the biggest issue... viewing cone. As gain goes up viewing cone decreases. I've seen a few people argue about that and even make claims they have a 1.8 or higher gain screen that has almost a 180 degree viewing cone, and that is impossible. It's a complete violation of the laws of light and physics and unless they know something that nobody else on the planet knows, it's a bunch of bunk.

As gain increases, so does color shifting off angle. In the sweet spot things look great, but with a screen that size you literally could experience the viewing cone when moving from the center of a couch (that's perpendictular to the screen) to the outer edges of the couch. Mica is only going to make that color shift worse if it's a high gain mica based screen. People sitting off to side on the other couch are not going to have a good viewing experience at all... if it really is a high gain screen using mica to boost the gain.

So you want a bright screen that is neutral, with some gain, and also a tad darker than a white screen. That way you'll have the widest viewing cone, the brightest image, and blacks and darks will look better than a white screen but whites and colors will still look fantastic. C&S really sounds like the ticket. It's an N9 shade of gray, it has some gain but not so much you have viewing cone or color shifting issues outside the sweet spot, and you're colors and whites will be spot on and as good as what your projector can produce.

Something else to keep in mind, the screen should be a neutral palate and other than helping with perceived contrast or like in your case, providing the required gain to get you to the recommended min fL brightness... other than that, adjustments should be be made at the projector and not the screen. Why some people insist on making warm screens, or cool screens or screens with intentional color pushes and then adding gold and other things to compensate for the color push... it makes no sense. They should just go with a D65 screen for their mixes and be done with it.

I really think you're going to be happy with C&S if you do decide to go that route.

 

[wbassett]

Too bad this doesn't come in larger sizes, it might have been perfect for you if the gain really is 1.6!

This material can't be talked about elsewhere but we don't have any problem talking about commercial screens here or even recommending them if they fit someone's needs the best.

You're not in Kansas anymore Audixium! Actually maybe you are in Kansas and I should say you're not in Oz where reality can sometimes get a little skewed.

I see if I had fully read the other posts some of my questions about the sitting arrangement would have been answered.

 

[Audixium]

Too bad this doesn't come in larger sizes, it might have been perfect for you if the gain really is 1.6!

This material can't be talked about elsewhere but we don't have any problem talking about commercial screens here or even recommending them if they fit someone's needs the best.

You're not in Kansas anymore Audixium! Actually maybe you are in Kansas and I should say you're not in Oz where reality can sometimes get a little skewed.

I see if I had fully read the other posts some of my questions about the sitting arrangement would have been answered.

Thanks for all the feedback and your PM. Now I'm dying to know what doesn't come in larger sizes :scratch:...what material :scratchhead:...what commercial product :hail:...

 

[wbassett]

Sorry, I forgot to put the link in!
http://www.b-adeals.com/ProductScreenGrey.htm

 

[Harpmaker]

That sounds like interesting screen material Bill!

I do have a question about it being for both front and rear projection; doesn't that mean that light is getting through the material and being lost? Still sounds interesting.

BTW Audixium, while I said that I think you might like a screen darker than C&S, go with what Bill, mech or Jim advise. I still have training-wheels on when it comes to screen recommendations.