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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have all the paint for the Black Widow recipe, but saw some images of the Cream and Sugar next to the Black Widow.

I want honest opinions of which people think is better.

The colors seemed broghter on the Cream and Sugar but there wasn't any talk of the black level.

Mech and Harpmaker: These are your two recipes, try to sell them to me. Which one is better and why (but no fighting) :paddle:
 

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Guess I had nothing to do with Black Widow ;)
 

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Seriously though...

Black Widow and C&S are really two very different screens. It's hard to compare screens that are that different. Each one will have its pros and cons. Basically it comes down to your preferences as well as viewing habits/conditions.

If you already have a projector, let us know what make and model and what your room size is, desired screen size as well as any potential lighting issues and then we can go from there with some recommendations. If you don't have a projector yet, let's start with your room, what size screen you want, and then we can match up a screen option and a projector that will work great in that setup.
 

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What Wbasset said. :bigsmile:

You should never try to compare a white or very light gray screen to a regular or dark gray screen side-by-side. The lighter screen will always seem to give better whites and the darker screen will always seem to give better blacks when viewed at the same time.

Cream&Sugar was designed for those that wanted to get slightly better colors and blacks than a white screen would give them, but were concerned they would lose too much "***********" by going to a darker gray solution. Also, for those that MUST stay with a white screen for equipment reasons.

Which screen will work best for you depends on your viewing environment, equipment and personal preference.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Sorry wbassett. :eek:opssign:

I have to pay better attention. But thanks for your response.:T
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Right now I use an Epson powerlite 8000 (don't laugh) for training for our Fire Department. I also use it to show movies when we camp and in the backyard for the neighbors.

My plan is to paint a screen on the wall of my garage so when it gets chilly outside, we can stay in my heated garage and watch movies.

The City I live in experienced a Natural Disaster last August. The whole town was flooded, including me. I hope to install a home theater in the basement in the future, but the flood costs me too much to do it now.:thumbsdown::sad2:

I will however buy a decent projector when that time comes, and will be watching this site to get any suggestions I can get.:T
 

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Is it the Powerlite 8000i?

Next question is how big of a screen are we talking?

If you have the 8000i, at 2200 Lumens you can definitely handle some light as well as a darker gray like Black Widow. I wouldn't worry about CR. What a lot of people don't know or realize when it comes to CR and lighting conditions is even something as minor as a candle lit will trash CR. Even projectors with a 5000:1 CR can quickly be rendered down to what you have with even one light on.

I'd definitely keep the projector if it's the 8000i and use it for your outdoor theater and when you are ready to build your new indoor HT room then shop around for one for in there.

Here is a 1700 Lumen projector (also 200:1 CR) on an N8 gray screen with tons of sunlight coming in the room.



Keep in mind there is some direct sunlight hitting the screen but most is reflected room lighting. As long as the Sun isn't directly in line with your screen as it is setting you should be fine. Also being inside a structure will help out immensely.

With that said, and absolutely no offense to C&S, in this particular case I would recommend Black Widow. The darker gray will help out with your perceived contrast levels while also preventing the image from washing out as much as with a lighter screen. The aluminum in BW will help give a brighter image too.

Does it work? We have a person that used Black Widow for their commercial flight simulator. They had some issues with lighting as well as they are running three screens and the reflected light from one screen was washing the image and detail out in the other screens.

I also was consulted by an installer on setting up a patio theater for one of their customers, and they were very happy with the outcome.

Summer is coming and outdoor theaters are pretty cool! What are you using for your sound system? I'm sure a lot of people would find your setup and what you are doing very interesting! :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Thanks,

It is the Powerlite 8000i.

I have a very simple and light set up. I use a portable DVD player and run powered computer speakers out of the headphone jack. I works pretty good for what I'm trying to accomplish. :heehee:

Of course it's nothing like I want for my home theater, but people that walk by our campsites get a kick out if it. :bigsmile:

Screen size is roughly 100 inches diagonally.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
wbassett:

One more thing. Is this the correct (current) recipe for Black Widow. 4:1 ratio of Bermuda beige to Auto air aluminum fine?

I am using 1 quart Valspar ultra Premium enamel (Base #1) tinted Bermuda Beige (PPG color) and adding 8 oz. of the Createx Auto air aluminum fine.

Is that the correct recipe?
 

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Thanks,

It is the Powerlite 8000i.

I have a very simple and light set up. I use a portable DVD player and run powered computer speakers out of the headphone jack. I works pretty good for what I'm trying to accomplish. :heehee:

Of course it's nothing like I want for my home theater, but people that walk by our campsites get a kick out if it. :bigsmile:

Screen size is roughly 100 inches diagonally.
Actually some of the 5.1 powered computer speakers kick out a lot of sound! I was really surpised at some of them and the quality for such an inexpensive price.

Looks like you have a fun setup! I'd like to give an outdoor theater a try, but our town has a Drive-In that I am sure wouldn't like someone showing free movies ;)


wbassett:

One more thing. Is this the correct (current) recipe for Black Widow. 4:1 ratio of Bermuda beige to Auto air aluminum fine?

I am using 1 quart Valspar ultra Premium enamel (Base #1) tinted Bermuda Beige (PPG color) and adding 8 oz. of the Createx Auto air aluminum fine.

Is that the correct recipe?
Yes that is correct. Both C&S and BW are pretty easy applications. Like I said, I wasn't favoring BW over C&S for bias reasons, in your situation you have the lumens and I think you could benefit from a darker screen. If you had a lower lumen projector and were setting up inside in a dedicated room, I probably would have said go with C&S.
 

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... With that said, and absolutely no offense to C&S, in this particular case I would recommend Black Widow.

Yes that is correct. Both C&S and BW are pretty easy applications. Like I said, I wasn't favoring BW over C&S for bias reasons, in your situation you have the lumens and I think you could benefit from a darker screen. If you had a lower lumen projector and were setting up inside in a dedicated room, I probably would have said go with C&S.
No worries! :bigsmile: I totally agree; if you have the lumens, go BW. :T
 

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How about my situation:

Light-controlled "cave" as it was referred to on the Black Widow thread.
Drywall construction.
Panasonic PT-AE2000U in Cinema 1 mode
12' 10" distance projector-to-screenwall
Full wide-angle setting
Image 9' 6" wide; 5' 4" high in 16:9, a little over 4' high in Cinerama.

As a screen I'm presently using the wall itself, painted flat white 6 years ago with interior latex paint, and I'm generally pleased, but I've recently had to spackle a few screw-holes left behind from the 7' wide black cardboard frame I had mounted on the wall because my previous projector, a Dell MP3100 DLP, framed the image with a medium grey border - the black cardboard hid that border, improving visual contrast.

On-axis it looks fine, but off-axis, the spackle is a bit shiny.

As a result, I'll probably need to repaint - it was 6 years ago that I painted the wall, so I'll have to buy new paint anyway.

The rest of the walls are the same paint, so the room is not completely dark when I use the projector, since the light from the screen bounces off the other walls. (I was originally going to paint the walls and ceiling black with a grid of thin yellow lines spaced several inches apart - you got it, a holodeck - but that was vetoed by my family. Instead, the room is called "Stellar Cartography.")

The image is nice and bright, with good contrast. My AVIA DVD led me to adjust the brightness and contrast slightly, but the color was dead on. (I haven't yet gotten a Blu-Ray player, but my Denon 2910 does a very good job upconverting to 1080i, which the projector deinterlaces to 1080p/24. For 1080i I've got Comcast.) I'm running the projector in Economy mode because I couldn't see any difference when I toggled it back and forth with Normal.

In this situation, would I benefit more from a Cream and Sugar or Black Widow paint job?
 

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Thanks for the prompt reply, mech!

My theater is a free-standing room in the basement, and its only ventilation (unless I leave the door to the room open, which I never do unless I'm there) is via a small window air-conditioner I've mounted through a hole I cut in the wall, which exhausts into the rest of the basement.

My local Sherwin Williams store tells me that a quart would be enough to cover 75 square feet - more than enough for my 9' 6" by 5' 4" (50.73 square foot) screen, and that it takes about an hour to dry.

My questions:

Is one coat enough, since the wall is already painted with flat white latex paint?

Does the addition of the metallic silver paint make the mix take longer to dry?

Are there any major problems with fumes?

and

How long does it take for the smell to dissipate?

I have a free-standing HEPA filtering fan that I bought a few years ago to help get rid of the musty smell from a basement flood (which made no difference) - would that help with any fumes?

Phil
 
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I recently did a C&S screen in my "workout room". The screen is on drywall, 8'X4.5'. I sprayed it with a HVLP sprayer and really did not notice any odor from the SW Luminous White plus the "aluminum" paint (not sure it really is aluminum). I did 3 light coats of C&S on top of two coats of Behr semi-gloss UPW (which I had left over from another project). Before that I had applied 2 coats of Behr drywall primer. The primer was a bit smelly but the other paint was not. They all seemed to dry very quickly. I suspect if you roll it on the odor would be even less and drying time somewhat longer. Personally I would wait a day between coats, I did that to give the paint a chance to cure slightly (not just dry) Dry but not cured paint can soften when a second coat is applied. That can be more of a problem if you are rolling. I was more concerned with possible softening of the drywall compound under the primer because I had a bad experience with that when I first started out on this.

So far I am well pleased with the results. It appears both brighter and blacker than just a white screen. And compared to a white screen, the C&S seems to "glow" in the dark. I guess this could be a problem in a non-light-controlled room. Mine is basically a cave with black ceiling and dark blue walls, so there is little reflection back to the screen.
 

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Hi Phil!

I haven't noticed any real "smell" from either the SW Luminous White or the Craft Smart Metallic Silver paints; but I know some people are very sensitive to just about any kind of paint "fumes".

As far as I remember, C&S dries like a regular latex paint.

My workshop (where I do my screen testing) is very much like your room only a bit bigger; it's a 20x24 foot room built into one corner of a 70x42 foot "pole barn" and has white walls and ceiling. If you have white walls all the way around, I suspect you are getting a fair amount of projector light bouncing off them and back onto the screen. This is a form of "ambient light".

If you were happy with a flat white wall as a screen then C&S would be the first step in getting a better picture since it is very close to being white. While it's a very subjective thing, I suspect you might be happier with an even darker screen mix. Some very interesting things are currently being developed in the Black Widow Lab which may interest you, but try the C&S first since it may be as dark a screen as you, personally, want to go with.

If you can get the Luminous White in a quart, C&S is a very inexpensive and easy mix to try. If you like the way it looks then stop right there and enjoy. If you think a bit darker screen might be to your taste, keep an eye peeled for the new BW mixes which will be ready soon, but not real soon. :bigsmile:

Al!

Thanks for the report on your C&S screen! Really glad you're enjoying it!:T Any chance you could post some photos? :bigsmile:
 

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Thanks Al and Harpmaker!

I'm going on vacation Saturday, so I may not have a chance to try out C&S until the end of the month, but it sounds great.

Any risk that the letterbox bars will seem brighter than at present? Right now they're pretty close to invisible. Al's mention of the screen seeming to glow (from reflected screen light off the rest of the room's white walls) suggests that they might. On the other hand, the "blacker blacks" aspect would seem to contradict that, so I'm a little confused.

PS - While the walls of my room (which is 15' square, with a 5' by 7' foyer) are flat white, there's furniture on all the walls, so the reflective area is only from waist height to the 7' high ceiling (and in the right-hand side of the room the ceiling is only 5' high).

I used to get more bounce light off the ceiling than I do now, since my prior screen area was higher up on the wall - the ceiling drops down several feet at the 8' mark from the left, so my 9' 6" wide image has to fit under that drop by starting near the floor just above my center channel speaker, instead of extending nearly up to the ceiling. (The floor is grey carpet.)
 
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Phil

I think you will perceive less of the "glow" factor than I did. As I said, my walls are a very dark blue (almost black) flat color and so anything in the room that reflects light seems to "glow". But C&S is actually a light gray (very light) so if your walls are white it will appear darker instead of glowing, so it should help with a small amount of ambient light. My room used to be white but I got carried away with light control and painted it dark. Since it is only an exercise room and part time HT, it did not matter to me what color it was -- but it is kind of neat looking and any lights I turn on (within reason) never really affect the screen. On the other hand, if I want to do some close work (like reading something), it's kind of hard to see since only direct light reaches what you are looking at. That's usually not a problem for what I do in there.

Harp

I will try to get some shots posted. I took some and they looked pretty good, but I am still experimenting with camera settings. As part of my setup, I've got a laptop that can drive my PJ so I can view the pictures I take back on the screen and make comparisons. Not very scientific but I was surprised at how close the pictures were to the original. I've been meaning to take some pictures of the pictures (I wonder how often you could do that before they become complete garbage). I still need to put some kind of border on the screen, the almost black wall works pretty well but it makes the less-than-black black from my PJ stand out (a totally black screen looks dark gray). It's not a problem with "normal" viewing material, so I'm not really complaining. But I'm looking into a dark gray border with a second white border outside of it (still in the planning stages :ponder:).
 
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