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Is there a noticeably audible difference between two level matched solid state amps under controlled

  • Yes... I believe a notable difference can be heard.

    Votes: 139 48.8%
  • No... I do not believe there is any audibly significant difference.

    Votes: 146 51.2%

Can we really hear a difference between amps?

169357 Views 835 Replies 96 Participants Last post by  jonathonsmith
Can we really hear a difference between two amps?

More specifically... between two amps that have been level matched in a controlled listening test. We are not talking about amps that have been modified or are driven beyond their reasonable limits.

What a crazy and completely worn out question... I know, I know, but I figured why not have a bit of fun with it anyway.

Naturally our ZERO TOLERANCE FORUM RULES are going to apply as they ALWAYS do! So... if you are one of those who simply cannot have a sensible discussion on a hot and debated topic... STAY FAR AWAY from this thread. :D

Consider the following link and quoted articles:

LINK: Science and Subjectivism in Audio

Any amplifier, regardless of topology, can be treated as a “black box” for the purpose of listening comparisons. If amplifiers A and B both have flat frequency response, low noise floor, reasonably low distortion, high input impedance, low output impedance, and are not clipped, they will be indistinguishable in sound at matched levels no matter what’s inside them. Of course, some of the new “alphabet soup” topologies do not necessarily satisfy those conditions.

I really believe that all this soul-searching, wondering, questioning, agonizing about amplifiers is basically unproductive and would be much more rewarding if applied to loudspeakers instead. For various reasons that I have discussed in the past, people are more willing to change amplifiers than loudspeakers. That’s most unfortunate because a new and better loudspeaker will change your audio life but a new amplifier will not.

—Peter Aczel, Editor & Publisher, The Audio Critic
There has been a lot of hot chatter on the E-mail circuit over the past couple of months about the Steve Maki and Steve Zipser challenge in Miami. I thought you would appreciate a complete recount of the events. Zipser, a high-end salon owner, had issued a challenge that he would pay the airplane fare of any interested party who wanted to see him prove he could hear the differences between amplifiers.

On Sunday afternoon, August 25th, Maki and I arrived at Zipser's house, which is also Sunshine Stereo. Maki brought his own control unit, a Yamaha AX-700 100-watt integrated amplifier for the challenge. In a straight 10-trial hard-wired comparison, Zipser was only able to identify correctly 3 times out of 10 whether the Yamaha unit or his pair of Pass Laboratories Aleph 1.2 monoblock 200-watt amplifiers was powering his Duntech Marquis speakers. A Pass Labs preamplifier, Zip's personal wiring, and a full Audio Alchemy CD playback system completed the playback chain. No device except the Yamaha integrated amplifier was ever placed in the system. Maki inserted one or the other amplifier into the system and covered them with a thin black cloth to hide identities. Zipser used his own playback material and had as long as he wanted to decide which unit was driving the speakers.

I had matched the playback levels of the amplifiers to within 0.1 dB at 1 kHz, using the Yamaha balance and volume controls. Playback levels were adjusted with the system preamplifier by Zipser. I also determined that the two devices had frequency response differences of 0.4 dB at 16 kHz, but both were perfectly flat from 20 Hz to 8 kHz. In addition to me, Zipser, and Maki, one of Zip's friends, his wife, and another person unknown to me were sometimes in the room during the test, but no one was disruptive and conditions were perfectly quiet.

As far as I was concerned, the test was over. However, Zipser complained that he had stayed out late the night before and this reduced his sensitivity. At dinner, purchased by Zipser, we offered to give him another chance on Monday morning before our flight back North. On Monday at 9 a.m., I installed an ABX comparator in the system, complete with baling-wire lead to the Yamaha. Zipser improved his score to 5 out of 10. However, my switchpad did develop a hang-up problem, meaning that occasionally one had to verify the amplifier in the circuit with a visual confirmation of an LED. Zipser has claimed he scored better prior to the problem, but in fact he only scored 4 out of 6 before any difficulties occurred.

His wife also conducted a 16-trial ABX comparison, using a 30-second phrase of a particular CD for all the trials. In this sequence I sat next to her at the main listening position and performed all the amplifier switching functions according to her verbal commands. She scored 9 out of 16 correct. Later another of Zip's friends scored 4 out of 10 correct. All listening was done with single listeners.

In sum, no matter what you may have heard elsewhere, audio store owner Steve Zipser was unable to tell reliably, based on sound alone, when his $14,000 pair of class A monoblock amplifiers was replaced by a ten-year old Japanese integrated amplifier in his personal reference system, in his own listening room, using program material selected personally by him as being especially revealing of differences. He failed the test under hardwired no-switching conditions, as well as with a high-resolution fast-comparison switching mode. As I have said before, when the answers aren't shared in advance, "Amps Is Amps" even for the Goldenest of Ears.

Tom Nousaine
Cary, IL
Richard Clark $10,000 Amplifier Challenge FAQ

by Tom Morrow

Written 6/2006


The Richard Clark Amp Challenge is a listening test intended to show that as long as a modern audio amplifier is operated within its linear range (below clipping), the differences between amps are inaudible to the human ear. Because thousands of people have taken the test, the test is significant to the audiophile debate over audibility of amplifier differences. This document was written to summarize what the test is, and answer common questions about the test. Richard Clark was not involved in writing this document.

The challenge


Richard Clark is an audio professional. Like many audiophiles, he originally believed the magazines and marketing materials that different amplifier topologies and components colored the sound in unique, clearly audible ways. He later did experiments to quantify and qualify these effects, and was surprised to find them inaudible when volume and other factors were matched.

His challenge is an offer of $10,000 of his own money to anyone who could identify which of two amplifiers was which, by listening only, under a set of rules that he conceived to make sure they both measure “good enough” and are set up the same. Reports are that thousands of people have taken the test, and none has passed the test. Nobody has been able to show an audible difference between two amps under the test rules.
This article will attempt to summarize the important rules and ramifications of the test, but for clarity and brevity some uncontroversial, obvious, or inconsequential rules are left out of this article. The full rules, from which much of this article was derived, are available here and a collection of Richard's comments are available here.

Testing procedure


The testing uses an ABX test device where the listener can switch between hearing amplifier A, amplifier B, and a randomly generated amplifier X which is either A or B. The listener's job is to decide whether source X sounds like A or B. The listener inputs their guess into a computerized scoring system, and they go on to the next identification. The listener can control the volume, within the linear (non-clipped) range of the amps. The listener has full control over the CD player as well. The listener can take as long as they want to switch back and forth between A, B, and X at will.

Passing the test requires two sets of 12 correct identifications, for a total of 24 correct identifications. To speed things up, a preliminary round of 8 identifications, sometimes done without levels or other parameters perfectly matched, is a prerequisite.

Richard Clark normally has CD source, amplifiers, high quality home audio speakers, and listening environment set up in advance. But if the listener requests, they can substitute whatever source, source material, amplifiers, speakers (even headphones), and listening environment they prefer, within stipulated practical limits. The source material must be commercially available music, not test signals. Richard Clark stipulates that the amplifiers must be brand name, standard production, linear voltage amplifiers, and they must not fail (e.g. thermal shutdown) during the test.

Amplifier requirements


The amplifiers in the test must be operated within their linear power capacity. Power capacity is defined as clipping or 2% THD 20Hz to 10kHz, whichever is less. This means that if one amplifier has more power (Watts) than the other, the amplifiers will be judged within the power range of the least powerful amplifier.

The levels of both left and right channels will be adjusted to match to within .05 dB. Polarity of connections must be maintained so that the signal is not inverted. Left and Right cannot be reversed. Neither amplifier can exhibit excessive noise. Channel separation of the amps must be at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.

All signal processing circuitry (e.g. bass boost, filters) must be turned off, and if the amplifier still exhibits nonlinear frequency response, an equalizer will be set by Richard Clark and inserted inline with one of the amps so that they both exhibit identical frequency response. The listener can choose which amplifier gets the equalizer.


FAQs:


How many people have taken the challenge?

Richard Clark says over a couple thousand people have taken the test, and nobody has passed. He used to do the test for large groups of people at various audio seminars, and didn't charge individuals to do the test, which accounted for the vast majority of the people who did the test. Around 1996 was the last of the big tests, and since then he has done the test for small numbers of people on request, for a charge ($200 for unaffiliated individuals, $500 for people representing companies).

When did the challenge start?


Sometime around the year 1990. Richard Clark says in a post on 7/2004 that the test with the $10,000 prize started about 15 years ago.

What were the results of the test?


Nobody has ever successfully passed the test. Richard Clark says that generally the number of correct responses was about the same as the number of incorrect responses, which would be consistent with random guessing. He says in large groups he never observed variation more than 51/49%, but for smaller groups it might vary as much as 60/40%. He doesn't keep detailed logs of the responses because he said they always show random responses.

Is two sets of 12 correct responses a stringent requirement?


Yes. Richard Clark intentionally made the requirements strict because with thousands of people taking the test, even random guessing would eventually cause someone to pass the test if the bar was set low. Since he is offering his own $10,000 to anyone who will pass the test, he wants to protect against the possibility of losing it to random guessing.

However, if the listener is willing to put up their own money for the test as a bet, he will lower the requirements from 12 correct down to as low as 6 correct.

Richard Clark has said “22 out of 24 would be statistically significant. In fact it would prove that the results were audible. Any AVERAGE score more than 65% would do so. But no one has even done that”.”

Do most commercially available amplifiers qualify for this test, even tube amplifiers and class D amplifiers?


Yes. Nearly all currently available amplifiers have specs better than what are required for the test. Tube amplifiers generally qualify, as do full range class D amplifiers. It is not clear whether Richard Clark would allow sub amplifiers with a limited frequency response.

Besides taking Richard Clark's word, how can the results of the test be verified?


Many car audio professionals have taken the test and/or witnessed the test being taken in audio seminars, so there isn't much doubt that the test actually existed and was taken by many people. One respected professional who has taken and witnessed the test is Mark Eldridge. Because the test has been discussed widely on audio internet forums, if there were people who passed the test it seems likely that we would have heard about it. Sometimes there are reports of people who believe they passed the test, but upon further examination it turns out that they only passed the preliminary round of 8 tests, where levels were not matched as closely as for the final test.

How can audio consumers use the results of this test?


When purchasing an amplifier, they can ignore the subjective sound quality claims of marketers. Many amplifier marketers will claim or imply that their amplifiers have some special topology, materials, or magic that makes the sound clearly superior to other amps at all volume levels. Many consumers pay several times more than they otherwise would for that intangible sound quality they think they are getting. This test indicates that the main determinant of sound quality is the amount of power the amplifier can deliver. When played at 150W, an expensive 100W measured amplifier will clip and sound worse than a cheap 200W measured amp.

Does this mean all amps sound the same in a normal install?


No. Richard Clark is very careful to say that amps usually do not sound the same in the real world. The gain setting of an amplifier can make huge differences in how an amplifier sounds, as can details like how crossovers or other filters are set. When played very loud (into clipping), the amplifier with more power will generally sound better than a lower powered amp.

Most people perceive slight differences in amplitude as quality differences rather than loudness. The louder component sounds “faster, more detailed, more full”, not just louder. This perceptual phenomenon is responsible for many people thinking they liked the sound of a component when really they just liked the way it was set up.

I changed amps in my system to another one with the same measured power and I hear a sound quality difference. Does this show that the test results are invalid?


No. Installing a new amplifier involves setting the gains and crossovers, and any slight change you make to those settings is going to affect how things sound.

Is adding an equalizer just a way of “dumbing down” the better amplifier ?


Richard Clark allows the equalizer to be added to whichever amplifier the listener wants. It can be added to the amplifier that the listener perceives as the weaker amplifier . The EQ is most likely to be used when comparing a tube amplifier (which exhibits slight high frequency rolloff) to a solid state amplifier . In that case Richard Clark says he can usually fashion an equalizer out of just a resistor and/or capacitor which for just a few dollars makes the solid state amplifier exhibit the same rolloff as the tube amplifier, and therefore sound the same. If the tube amplifier really sounded better, then modifying the solid state amplifier to sound indistinguishable from it for a few bucks should be a great improvement.

How might allowing clipping in the test affect the results?


It's impossible to know for sure because that would be a different test that has not been done. But Richard Clark seems to think that in clipping, conventional amplifiers would sound about the same, and tube amplifiers would sound different from solid state amplifiers.

Richard Clark reported that he did some preliminary experiments to determine how clipping sounds on different amplifiers . He recorded the amplifier output using special equipment at clipping, 12db over clipping, 18db over clipping, and 24db over clipping. Then he normalized the levels and listened. His perception was that with the same amount of overdrive, the conventional amplifiers sounded the same. With the same amount of overdrive the tube amplifiers sounded worse than the conventional amplifiers . On the basis of that experiment, he said “I believe I am willing to modify my amplifier challenge to allow any amount of clipping as long as the amplifiers have power ratings (actual not advertised) within 10% of each other. This would have to exclude tube amplifiers as they seem to sound much worse and it is obvious”.

If a manufacturer reports false power ratings, will that interfere with the test?


No. The test is based on measured power, not rated power .

Does this mean that there is no audible difference between sources, or between speakers?


No. There are listening tests that show small but significant differences among some sources (for instance early CD players versus modern CD players). And speakers typically have 25% or more harmonic distortion. Most everyone agrees that differences among speakers are audible.

Does the phrase "a watt is a watt" convey what this test is about?


Not quite but close. Richard Clark has stated that some amplifiers (such as tubes) have nonlinear frequency response, so a watt from them would not be the same as a watt from an amplifier with flat frequency response.

Do the results indicate I should buy the cheapest amp?


No. You should buy the best amplifier for your purpose. Some of the factors to consider are: reliability, build quality, cooling performance, flexibility, quality of mechanical connections, reputation of manufacturer, special features, size, weight, aesthetics, and cost. Buying the cheapest amplifier will likely get you an unreliable amplifier that is difficult to use and might not have the needed features. The only factor that this test indicates you can ignore is sound quality below clipping.

If you have a choice between a well built reliable low cost amp, and an expensive amplifier that isn't reliable but has a better reputation for sound quality, it can be inferred from this test that you would get more sound for your money by choosing the former.

Do home audio amps qualify for the test?


Yes. In the 2005 version of the test rules, Richard explicitly allows 120V amplifiers in a note at the end.

How can people take the test?


They should contact Richard Clark for the details. As of 2006 Richard Clark is reported to not have a public email account, and David Navone handles technical inquiries for him. Most likely they will need to pay a testing fee and get themselves to his east coast facility.

Is this test still ongoing?


As of early 2006 , there have not been any recent reports of people taking the test, but it appears to still be open to people who take the initiative to get tested.

Do the results prove inaudibility of amplifier differences below clipping?


It's impossible to scientifically prove the lack of something. You cannot prove that there is no Bigfoot monster, because no matter how hard you look, it is always possible that Bigfoot is in the place you didn't look. Similarly, there could always be a amplifier combination or listener for which the test would show an audible difference. So from a scientific point of view, the word “prove” should not be used in reference to the results of this test.

What the test does do is give a degree of certainty that such an audible difference does not exist.

What do people who disagree with the test say?


Some objections that have been raised about the test:

  • Richard Clark has a strong opinion on this issue and therefore might bias his reports.
  • In the real world people use amps in the clipping zone, and the test does not cover that situation.
  • Some audible artifacts are undetectable individually, but when combined with other artifacts they may become audible as a whole. For instance cutting a single graphic EQ level by one db may not be audible, but cutting lots of different EQ levels by the same amount may be audible. Maybe the amps have defects that are only audible when combined with the defects from a particular source, speaker, or system.
  • Some listeners feel that they can't relax enough to notice subtle differences when they have to make a large number of choices such as in this test.
  • There is a lack of organized results. Richard Clark only reports his general impressions of the results, but did not keep track of all the scores. He does not know exactly how many people have taken the test, or how many of the people scored “better than average”.
  • If someone scored significantly better than average, which might mean that they heard audible differences, it is not clear whether Richard Clark followed up and repeated the test enough times with them to verify that the score was not statistically significant.
Is there one sentence that can describe what the test is designed to show?

When compared evenly, the sonic differences between amplifiers operated below clipping are below the audible threshold of human hearing.

Links


Note from the author

I wrote this Summary/FAQ because I found that many of the people who disagreed with Richard Clark about the challenge simply didn't have the whole story on the challenge. I originally thought the challenge was flawed even after I read the rules a few times, but after reading lots of comments from Richard Clark, my objections were answered and now I believe that understanding the challenge is a very useful tool for learning what is audible and what isn't. I have no relationship with Richard Clark and have never communicated with him except that I've read his public postings about the challenge. If anyone finds typos or factual errors in this document please contact me.
I have leaned towards the camp of not being able to hear any significant difference between almost any two amps out there when played at moderate levels on the typical speaker system, unless there is something wrong with one or the other amp that might cause it to color the sound.

Granted... a low-end receiver may well have an issue driving a system of certain electrostatic speakers... or speakers with low sensitivity, especially if pushed to higher levels. There are going to be exceptions, but for the sake of this discussion, let's say we are using a pair of Klipsch RF-62 II speakers with a sensitivity of 97dB @ 2.83V / 1m ... or perhaps the Duntech Marquis speakers that Zipser was using above at 92db.

I have owned processor/amp combos and/or receivers from Sony, Denon, Sunfire, McIntosh, Adcom, NAD, Onkyo, Earthquake, Anthem, Rotel, Lexicon, Emotiva (and probably others I cannot remember) powering Snell B-Minors, Klipsh Forte, PSB Image, SVS, JBL, Boston Acoustics, VMPS RM30's, MartinLogan Ascents, ML Spires and recently the older ML Prodigy mains with a Theater center and Ascent surrounds powered by Emotiva XPA-1's and an Onkyo 906 Receiver. Currently (updated January 2104) I run an Onkyo 5509 with an Emotiva XPR-5 with MartinLogan Montis, Stage X and Motion 12's. The most significant difference I ever heard was moving to the Martin Logan speakers. NOTHING had EVER made anywhere close to a difference in sound as did the MartinLogan speakers. I thought at one time that my NAD receiver had more of a soft sound (maybe "warmer" as some will state the description), but was told (never did verify it with NAD or via measurements) that NAD intentionally setup their receivers with a rolled off high-end. However, I have heard significant differences in speakers. I have also performed A/B testing between several amps and have not found any differences outside of clipping and/or distortion.

Is it not the desire of the audiophile to have electronic equipment which does not alter the sound?

Your thoughts and comments will be interesting.
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801 - 820 of 836 Posts
Yep,
I think I understand in essence what is happening. This is not a judgement ..., but whats happening (i think i can see) I'm just stirring the pot one more time and what'ta you know "nothing new here"
I wonder if a statistician would ever take on this task he/she would need to have a high appreciation of music and sound reproduction.

Another concern/issue I think I see is "the industry" is moving too fast. I mean how much time do you get to spend with comparing the same any two amps. One weekend and its on to the next shinny and newest iteration. The basic electronics "Pre to Power" haven't changed much except the sound gets processed differently from 10trs ago.

If I ever come up with a survey questionnaire I'll post as a new post open to discussion and critique...

Just Thinkin':An old friend has a pair of 50's vintage "Altec Lansing Voice Of The Theater" speakers and at least 20 to 50 Pre/Power amps to choose from, both new and vintage, but the sound.... The sound you feel is cavernous while filling a 20x20' room and is awe inspiring. You can actually see many notes traveling across the cone excursions.

Happy Listening and Best Regards
Greg
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I love this video - I find no difficulty accepting Mr. Krueger' descriptions of electronic phenomena in minutia and even as he describes the minds ability to steer itself to into convincing oneself of what was intended/expected to hear. Only a few times did I get the sense Mr Krueger forgets that even his descriptions lean toward subjective bias. Do not misunderstand me I find this info truly inspired and each point valid in each seperate domain(subjective audio register). I simply enjoy music when I hear what I expect and/or want to hear "that's the best for me" - my room treatments are the coat rack, furniture and clutter except for the louvered room divider that in effect squares the room. I work with toe in and speaker distances along with Audyssey leveling. One day I may apply baffling to the front wall but I'm liking the sound-stage I hear and I'm afraid I'll then want bigger speakers. Blah, Blah, Blah Just consider all the sound reflections even at Carnegie Hall or the Orpheum Theater. I remember the Kooper, Bloomfield "Supper Session" at the Boston Gardens in the 60's (it doubled as an ice arena) like a theater in the round the music was everywhere but the volume and music at center stage blew me away. I don't believe I would like a dead quiet room LOL - but if I can quiet my mind from all of the useless chatter and truly hear what is in front of me..., who knows???? As usual I could be persuaded to change my mind.

Happy listening and Best Regards
Greg
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Dogs will love ya and treat you like your the greatest every time you walk into the room and you do have a point to coonsider.

I love it....
Greg
Dogs will love ya and treat you like your the greatest every time you walk into the room....
I resemble that remark :)

Sent from my iPad using HTShack
I resemble that remark :) Sent from my iPad using HTShack
one of my favorite lines!
The dogs do love Blue Lou, yep indeed.
I think Leonard has it right in that we will never reach a consensus in out opinions and I really dont want to try to influence anyone. Anything I type seems to come back as me trying to put a blanket of my beliefs onto someone else...and....others opinions oft times feel like a blanket of beliefs on me. This has to be so much easier when we come to accept that maybe we can both be right. I have mine and will live by them and the other fine group of gents seem to be happy as well. So what the , lets listen in a way that makes us happy and maybe raise a bit of goose bumps on our collective skins.
I would even cheer for a tear or two. Yeah baby !!!
The dogs do love Blue Lou, yep indeed. I think Leonard has it right in that we will never reach a consensus in out opinions and I really dont want to try to influence anyone. Anything I type seems to come back as me trying to put a blanket of my beliefs onto someone else...and....others opinions oft times feel like a blanket of beliefs on me. This has to be so much easier when we come to accept that maybe we can both be right. I have mine and will live by them and the other fine group of gents seem to be happy as well. So what the , lets listen in a way that makes us happy and maybe raise a bit of goose bumps on our collective skins. I would even cheer for a tear or two. Yeah baby !!!
Well said.
In the process of completing a recent speaker review, I had an interesting experience relating to this discussion. There were three amps used to drive the speakers in question - 94 dB efficient, so they did not need huge amounts of power to play at a decent volume. There was a 15 w / channel solid state amp, a pair 300 W / channel differential class-A solid state monoblocks, and a pair of 8 W / channel SET tube amps. A few observations:
  • I never heard hard clipping from the 15 W / channel solid state amp, but there was a point beyond which I wanted to hold back on the volume, and a sense of strain or tension if pushing the volume further. Presumably, the ear starts to hear an occasional small "clip" or the mere onset of clipping and reports it as that "tension" in the sound. While driven "clean," there was nothing distinctive about their sound.
  • The 300 W / channel monoblocks had such energy reserves that they felt like you could bring down the house and never hear distortion. A point for "can't hear a difference...???" Maybe, but there was an emphasis in the mid-bass that was totally unexpected and easy to identify. I mentioned it to my host and he said he had noticed it, had taken measurements, and the measurements showed no difference from other solid state amps. With no measurements of my own and no further data, all I can say is there was something about amp/speaker interaction that was audible and it was definitely NOT distortion. So, where in this discussion does that one fit?
  • The 8 W / channel SET tube amp had what I can only describe as a softened attack on the bass, again clearly audible. This can be explained by the higher source impedance of the tube amp and the lower damping factor, affecting the degree of control the amp has on driver movement, mainly the woofer. So this might be a data point for the side saying an amp can sound different because of a different design, another case of amp/speaker interaction causing a different sound. This could probably be shown with careful measurements of the right type. These amps were not pushed hard at all, so it was not a distortion / nonlinearity issue.

So, three amps, three different sounds. The small solid state amp with its clean sound when not driven to the beginnings of distortion, the big monoblocks with an apparent boost of mid-bass - unexplained, and the tube amps with no apparent mid bass boost but with softened bass attack due to lower damping factor. All this was totally unexpected to me. I was not looking for or expecting to hear any difference at all or even thinking about it, they just jumped out at me quite obviously and were confirmed by other listeners.
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Excellent post Craver, I am glad you tried a nice group of amps that could not be more different from one another. SS and Tube amplifiers work differently when connected to a loudspeaker in that SS tends to drive the speaker and accepts no feedback while a tube amp tends to drive the loudspeaker but does accept some feedback thus allowing the amp and speaker to sort of speak to each other.

I dont think one is better than the other when it comes to most situations, however the low power set will not work well with most speakers not intended to be driven by the flea watt brothers. I have a 30 wpc tube amp that does not really sound all that "Tubey" if you will but even at 30 wpc, it has limitations.

Lastly, I wonder if there will ever be a definitive answer as to the proper amount of damping factor needed to control a loudspeaker. Most experts seem to say anything above 20 is good and should work fine. Crown seems to say 1000 might be really good and the class D amps tend to all have some serious damping factor but have not thus far been well received. This is a great post up.
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(A little thread necro to the thread that brought me here, in the market for some new separates to drive my Martin Logans.)

Hello everyone, :wave:

I found this thread pretty amazing and eye-opening. I found myself wishing the "no difference between amps" camp had a resource like the following:

- A list of "good enough" amps that fit the criteria of this thread. :eek:lddude: Rather than sites with hyperbolic effusive descriptions of amp sound -- a thumbs up/down for given speaker drive should be sufficient.
- And/or a guide on how to do "good enough" testing on a given amp so someone else could carry the above mantle.

I don't have the EE background it appears many in this thread have so I was lost a few times when people were checking amps with voltage meters for given impedance, etc. I have "hard to drive" speakers and would like to be sure I get an amp that can drive them with great imaging and lots of air. :huh:

FWIW, I have always heard differences between amps -- but almost all of those impressions were from integrated amps or amps on low-end pre-amps... so it makes sense to me that the big difference would be in the pre rather than the amp proper.

Thanks in advance to anyone who could point me to a resource like I mention in the above.
For the curious I'm currently considering...

Krell Foundation pre-amp
Pass Labs amp for the fronts (MartinLogan Ascents). Hopefully would be better than my old dead sonographe? I did love that (cheap) amp.
No real thoughts for rear amp yet.
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In the process of completing a recent speaker review, I had an interesting experience relating to this discussion. There were three amps used to drive the speakers in question - 94 dB efficient, so they did not need huge amounts of power to play at a decent volume. There was a 15 w / channel solid state amp, a pair 300 W / channel differential class-A solid state monoblocks, and a pair of 8 W / channel SET tube amps. A few observations:
  • I never heard hard clipping from the 15 W / channel solid state amp, but there was a point beyond which I wanted to hold back on the volume, and a sense of strain or tension if pushing the volume further. Presumably, the ear starts to hear an occasional small "clip" or the mere onset of clipping and reports it as that "tension" in the sound. While driven "clean," there was nothing distinctive about their sound.
  • The 300 W / channel monoblocks had such energy reserves that they felt like you could bring down the house and never hear distortion. A point for "can't hear a difference...???" Maybe, but there was an emphasis in the mid-bass that was totally unexpected and easy to identify. I mentioned it to my host and he said he had noticed it, had taken measurements, and the measurements showed no difference from other solid state amps. With no measurements of my own and no further data, all I can say is there was something about amp/speaker interaction that was audible and it was definitely NOT distortion. So, where in this discussion does that one fit?
  • The 8 W / channel SET tube amp had what I can only describe as a softened attack on the bass, again clearly audible. This can be explained by the higher source impedance of the tube amp and the lower damping factor, affecting the degree of control the amp has on driver movement, mainly the woofer. So this might be a data point for the side saying an amp can sound different because of a different design, another case of amp/speaker interaction causing a different sound. This could probably be shown with careful measurements of the right type. These amps were not pushed hard at all, so it was not a distortion / nonlinearity issue.

So, three amps, three different sounds. The small solid state amp with its clean sound when not driven to the beginnings of distortion, the big monoblocks with an apparent boost of mid-bass - unexplained, and the tube amps with no apparent mid bass boost but with softened bass attack due to lower damping factor. All this was totally unexpected to me. I was not looking for or expecting to hear any difference at all or even thinking about it, they just jumped out at me quite obviously and were confirmed by other listeners.
Hi Audiocraver,
your posts are always interesting :)

Do you have the opportunity to connect an oscilloscope during the playback with actual music material with a wide dynamic range and a real loudspeaker load?
I think that much more often then expected the amplifier may be clipping but for such short periods of time (milliseconds during the peaks) that the listener cannot recognize that as clipping... but the sound quality would nonetheless be different for trained listeners, what is your thought?

(may be there is truth in both camps 'cause in the real world we don't listen under controlled conditions and if we did we may have surprises from the behaviour of our amps...)

Thanks, Flavio
The HTS brain trust did an excellent amplifier evaluation get together.
The iPad is not letting me capture the link to the thread but a search for...

Home Theater Shack 2015 High-End Amplifier Evaluation Event Reporting and Discussion Thread

Should find the discussion thread.

There was a lot of effort put into that evaluation and report, it is a good read.
Here is the link Chase referred to: 2015 Amp Eval -

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...uation-event-reporting-discussion-thread.html

..., but first there are a few considerations to keep in mind as you search HTS. One is, although most HTS members admittedly have dedicated two channel audio setups in their "Home Theater (HT)" much of what I've read here @ HTS is about "HT" multi-channel listening. That does not mean the information and equipment testing, reviews, opinions presented herein can be or should be overlooked.

Second, much of the testing and reviews deal with the newest and best multi channel AVR's, Pre/Pros, DAC's, Amps and Video equipment.

Third, HTS is not a Hi-end Boutique "cost is no object" forum.

That said - if you want to learn about the newest and best electronic A/V technology available in the market and how to setup a theater or two channel system that will give you goose-bumps every time you hit the power button..., keep reading, your getting close.

I am not saying your headed in the wrong direction with Krell and Pass Labs. I keep thinking a Krell Showcase is in my future or just start with the Krell Vanguard. I should..., before my hearing losses are noticeable to even me.

I'll just add - if your looking at the Pass Amp because (as advertised) it will handle "low impedance loads" and you believe your ML electrostatics are difficult to drive for that reason..., stick around. There are and have been HTS members playing even music thru ML Electrostatics powered with Emotiva seperates and integrated elec's and I believe even Denon AVR's and the like all without issue given ample wattage.

My simple observations are (some experience) most of the High Current including digital amplification Audio electronics in the 125-200watt range will reproduce a very satisfying reference level sound that will keep you on the edge of your seat or in the dream state - whichever you prefer.

All that said - I'm thinking about the Krell Showcase even more seriously now.
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(A little thread necro to the thread that brought me here, in the market for some new separates to drive my Martin Logans.)

Hello everyone, :wave:

I found this thread pretty amazing and eye-opening. I found myself wishing the "no difference between amps" camp had a resource like the following:

- A list of "good enough" amps that fit the criteria of this thread. :eek:lddude: Rather than sites with hyperbolic effusive descriptions of amp sound -- a thumbs up/down for given speaker drive should be sufficient.
- And/or a guide on how to do "good enough" testing on a given amp so someone else could carry the above mantle.

I don't have the EE background it appears many in this thread have so I was lost a few times when people were checking amps with voltage meters for given impedance, etc. I have "hard to drive" speakers and would like to be sure I get an amp that can drive them with great imaging and lots of air. :huh:

FWIW, I have always heard differences between amps -- but almost all of those impressions were from integrated amps or amps on low-end pre-amps... so it makes sense to me that the big difference would be in the pre rather than the amp proper.

Thanks in advance to anyone who could point me to a resource like I mention in the above.
For the curious I'm currently considering...

Krell Foundation pre-amp
Pass Labs amp for the fronts (MartinLogan Ascents). Hopefully would be better than my old dead sonographe? I did love that (cheap) amp.
No real thoughts for rear amp yet.
Your suggestion has merit. Finding
  • A torch bearer to compile the information you suggest
  • Agreement on the results
is the tricky part.

Sonnie Parker owns a pair of ML Electro-Motion ESL, their entry-level hybrid electrostatic model. He drives them with 2 channels of a Parasound Halo A31. I have listened to them at near blistering volumes and the combination sounds amazing.
Gregr:

Love your signature line:

"We believe everything we tell ourselves..., don't we??"

My answer (FWIW): Yes, until we start to question what we have been believing... "Do I really believe that? Am I really hearing that?"
Gregr:

Love your signature line:

"We believe everything we tell ourselves..., don't we??"

My answer (FWIW): Yes, until we start to question what we have been believing... "Do I really believe that? Am I really hearing that?"
Exactly - I used to say we stumble upon our best lessons in life..., then proceed after achieving a reasonable sense of equilibrium. In effect, convincing ourselves of our unique intellectual/expert (expert in the sense of our unique experience/not all-knowing) nature. Otherwise, personal schema breaks down and neurosis sets in..., or worse. Maybe a good reason why we defend our positions so adamantly - like life depended on it for some...
I like a bumper sticker I saw once "question authority" and I sort of re-purposed it for my benefit, "Question Reality" then I stumbled upon the question: We believe everything we tell ourselves... .

You know, as do I, electricity can be defined mathematically - but what is the energy that fills the void between and creates the 3D construct of pos/neg, where does that energy come from..., its just there and we define it from the position of observable phenomena, right? Science is still discovering dimensions of lightning that redefines the way science views the world e.g. sprites and ionic expansion etc. What of quantum science and the prediction of higher and lower in-phase, energy levels or dimensions existing within our reality/dimension..., no longer a hypothesis this is a working theorem in the quantum world.

I don't claim to have a golden ear and at 65yrs after listening to loud music most of my conscious life I've probably given up the opp to develop an educated ear, so I'm on the fence as to what the differences in sound in pre/pro/amp could be as described by others.

But try this simple experiment: take two lengths of speaker cable; one simple OFC lamp cord and another an MIT Shotgun or Kimber 8TC speaker cable (random selection). First, play music using your typical cables, then:

1. disconnect power source
2. disconnect a single speaker cable (disconnect from the amp first)
3. connect (the speaker end of the cable first) any purported "better cable" of equal length in place of
the removed cable.

..., and listen. I'll bet for the first few minutes your head will tilt sideways. However, in time, I'll bet somehow the cables sound more and more similar. Like when children are born cross-eyed and after corrective surgery may view the world upside-down in one or both eyes, but eventually (usually) the mind re-inverts to a more useful upright and uniform vision. Or, did the amp/pre/pro equalize in response to electro-stasis tension or... ?

I sense we listen to elec sound and video reproduction in hopes of suspending disbelief even for just a moment and hopefully longer. As far as the "can we hear..." question, I'm not sure what the answer is or if there is a definitive answer. I am sure if 12 people are listening to music in the same room at the same time you'll get 12 different descriptions of what they heard (except when each of the 12 are very familiar with the expectations of others in the group). Sometimes I wonder if the question is "can people be trained to listen and hear reproduced sound critically". But then the question is how? Free-divers can train their bodies for deep-dives but what considerations would you choose for adjusting/max psychophysiology, bio-physiology, belief structures/expectations, recency effect and other forms of bias etc etc...

I should write a book, but not here.

Sorry to go on like this...

Best Regards and Happy listening
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Well guys, I'm in the pro-audio since early 1990 and the only thing I have to say is that "there is a big difference" between amps and I will put an example from my personal experience : Back in 1999, I won a contract to upgrade an auditorium sound system that has an EV 2 way active system 4 tops+4 subs all with QSC MX 3000 & 4000 amplifiers. So before moving to a new speaker system , I switched all amplifiers and tested with Lab-Gruppen FP series and the sound changed absolutely , so big was the difference in sound quality that I did an A/B comparison test with the same system : L with the original QSC amps & R with the Lab Gruppen and that's it and the difference was immediately noticed.
This is my personal experience and there's a big difference between amps, at least in the pro-audio field.

Cheers.

Alan
Its very possible looking at the specifications of the QSC MX 3000/4000 that they may have been loaded up to much. Without knowing what model of the Lab-Gruppen amps its hard to say. If the Lab-Gruppens were able to handle the load better without distortion that can be a big change in sound.
Treading carefully, I have to admit that I have heard some differences as well. One pair of speakers that I reviewed a couple of years ago sounded markedly different depending on the amp in use. tube vs solid state, both amp pairs monoblocks. Damping factor interaction with speaker impedance might have been involved. Channel separation is rarely specified vs freq any more, and that is another area which could affect imaging at HF, causing a perceptible difference in "sound."
I agree, I recently had to pull my Samson Servo 600 out to get fixed (one flakey channel) and used my QSC MX1500 for a few weeks and the sound was very warm compared to the Samson. The highs were more laid back (actually did not like it) and was glad to get the Samson back in. The QSC is 4 times the power output so I had to run the gains really low at about 20% so not sure if that had any impact on the sound.
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