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How did you know there is a transformer outside my house? Have you been looking me up on Google earth. :joke:
Changing out my Power Cable's
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15,060 Posts
Agreed, Using Hospital grade receptacles is a good upgrade and just using some good Tripe Lite Isobars is a good investment you dont have to break the bank.
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69 Posts
I think you make a very valid point here brucek, and honestly I've never really thought about the quality of power coming into my theatre from outside (if this is what you're referring too). Now for the beginner question regarding this very concern, as I truely have "0" experience in this arena :scratch:. How can I find out what the quality of clean/dirty power (for a better lack of words) is, coming in to my home? Whether this weighs in on the issue, I do live right in front of the main power station (surrounded with 10' concrete walls) with the transponder also right behind my home.
The idea that there is something fundamentally wrong with the AC power that enters our homes is usually unfounded. Most power that enters homes today is quite well regulated and relatively free from noise. It's human nature to assume that an expensive gadget will somehow transform and improve our audio and video systems. The exotic power cord, in my opinion, is at the top of the list of devices you shouldn't spend your money on.
Anyway, probably your best bang for buck would be a dedicated circuit.
brucek
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2 Posts
Kevin, I agree that swapping out your 99cent outlet for a high quality one will improve your sound. In my experience, not nearly as much as the "right" powercord however. I noticed a slight improvement in swapping my cheap receptacle out, but noticed HUGE improvements by switching from stock powecord to either PS Audio's Plus or Statement pcs. The bass impact is night and day. There is no way you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. You would seriously need to be partially deaf not to notice (no disrespect intended).
So, those of you that still don't believe it, thinking its a placebo effect, do yourself a favor and invest in a PS Audio xtreme Plus or Statement pc. The difference is remarkable. The only weakness to these powercords is the transients are sluggish. You will notice this pc is more layed back, the vocals are less centered. On the otherhand, the L-10 or L-9 made from litz copper, by BPT's Chris Hoff is brilliant. This is the quickest most accurate pc I have ever experienced, hence the result of me owning 3 of them. There is no bass impact with these however. I have 3 L-10s, one for my power conditioner, one for my receiver and one for my player. My music is simply more real, more alive with these pcs in place. No question about it.
I have tried these pcs on many different pieces of equipment, always noticing a difference, an improvement in virtually every situation. I admit I have owned other pcs that made very little difference. This is why I asked the nay sayers earlier, how many different pcs have you tried?
As far as the thinking, "you're only as good as your weakest link", I somewhat agree with that. Its true you will be limited in fully achieving your maximum potential, if only one or two of your pieces have the pcs, the interconnects, the speaker cable, the power conditioner, etc. However in response to that statement, it was best said by an audio mixing engineer I crossed paths with... Imagine your pieces of equipment and their respective cabling as dirty glass window panes. If you have say, three pieces of equipment (3 dirty windows), and you only clean one the panes of glass, what you are looking through is still difficult to see, but your site will noticeably improve with only two dirty panes remaining. If you were to clean two panes of glass, it will still be difficult to fully see what is on the other side, but your vision will be much improved. If you however clean ALL three of the panes of glass, your vision will be dramatically improved and you will be able to see everything perfectly clear.
This is the perfect analogy. Yes, until you've replaced every weakness in your arrangement, maximum benefit will not be reached, however every weak component or cable that is replaced brings you that much closer to perfection!
The pcs I have listed above have in some cases, shown greater impact than switching out some cd or dvd players, or even speakers for that matter! Every situation is different, as everyone has different equipment, combinations of gear, and different room dynamics. However, with an open mind, I do not believe anyone wouldn't hear some difference with those pcs I have listed above.
Best regards to all!
Rob :yay2:
So, those of you that still don't believe it, thinking its a placebo effect, do yourself a favor and invest in a PS Audio xtreme Plus or Statement pc. The difference is remarkable. The only weakness to these powercords is the transients are sluggish. You will notice this pc is more layed back, the vocals are less centered. On the otherhand, the L-10 or L-9 made from litz copper, by BPT's Chris Hoff is brilliant. This is the quickest most accurate pc I have ever experienced, hence the result of me owning 3 of them. There is no bass impact with these however. I have 3 L-10s, one for my power conditioner, one for my receiver and one for my player. My music is simply more real, more alive with these pcs in place. No question about it.
I have tried these pcs on many different pieces of equipment, always noticing a difference, an improvement in virtually every situation. I admit I have owned other pcs that made very little difference. This is why I asked the nay sayers earlier, how many different pcs have you tried?
As far as the thinking, "you're only as good as your weakest link", I somewhat agree with that. Its true you will be limited in fully achieving your maximum potential, if only one or two of your pieces have the pcs, the interconnects, the speaker cable, the power conditioner, etc. However in response to that statement, it was best said by an audio mixing engineer I crossed paths with... Imagine your pieces of equipment and their respective cabling as dirty glass window panes. If you have say, three pieces of equipment (3 dirty windows), and you only clean one the panes of glass, what you are looking through is still difficult to see, but your site will noticeably improve with only two dirty panes remaining. If you were to clean two panes of glass, it will still be difficult to fully see what is on the other side, but your vision will be much improved. If you however clean ALL three of the panes of glass, your vision will be dramatically improved and you will be able to see everything perfectly clear.
This is the perfect analogy. Yes, until you've replaced every weakness in your arrangement, maximum benefit will not be reached, however every weak component or cable that is replaced brings you that much closer to perfection!
The pcs I have listed above have in some cases, shown greater impact than switching out some cd or dvd players, or even speakers for that matter! Every situation is different, as everyone has different equipment, combinations of gear, and different room dynamics. However, with an open mind, I do not believe anyone wouldn't hear some difference with those pcs I have listed above.
Best regards to all!
Rob :yay2:
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1,385 Posts
We did this a while back, when I worked in a hifi store.
We set up a Lyngdorf TDAI2200+ on set of B&W 801 speakers. We did this because the TDAI is reportedly very sensitive to power cords, and the B&W is the obvious monitor choice, seeing that alot of high-end studios use these. We also used a Lyngdorf CD-1 as a transport.
The room itself is one of the best listening rooms for teh 801s. We've had representatives from B&W over and they said it's one of the best rooms outside of their dedicated studios they've heard. The room is large and relatively well damped, and at night after closing it's very quiet.
We had a very persistend customer who was burning for the PC issue, so we had him over with a selection of power cords (3 or 4, I can't remember). We also used the ones that came with the equipment, along with the thinnest, cheapest ones we could find.
We hid the equipment behind a sheet of fabrick, and made sure we switched equipment off and unplugged the cables, even if we just reinserted the same cable. The store is in a shopping center, so we suspected quite dirty power, so we also tried a Monster powercenter to filter the incoming power.
I couldn't find the spreadsheet right now, but the results were such that we might as well have used a random number generator. Many times I could have SWORN I heard huge differences, and it turned out to be the same cable I had just heard. One cable I was sure were alot better than the others turned out to be the cheapest thin cable. It was quite enlightening, actually, and the customer even had to concede to the facts that he couldn't pick either one of the cables in a truly blind test.
I'm not saying YOU cannot hear a difference in power cables, but I can't, and neither could the 10 or so hifi enthusiasts present at this blind test.
We set up a Lyngdorf TDAI2200+ on set of B&W 801 speakers. We did this because the TDAI is reportedly very sensitive to power cords, and the B&W is the obvious monitor choice, seeing that alot of high-end studios use these. We also used a Lyngdorf CD-1 as a transport.
The room itself is one of the best listening rooms for teh 801s. We've had representatives from B&W over and they said it's one of the best rooms outside of their dedicated studios they've heard. The room is large and relatively well damped, and at night after closing it's very quiet.
We had a very persistend customer who was burning for the PC issue, so we had him over with a selection of power cords (3 or 4, I can't remember). We also used the ones that came with the equipment, along with the thinnest, cheapest ones we could find.
We hid the equipment behind a sheet of fabrick, and made sure we switched equipment off and unplugged the cables, even if we just reinserted the same cable. The store is in a shopping center, so we suspected quite dirty power, so we also tried a Monster powercenter to filter the incoming power.
I couldn't find the spreadsheet right now, but the results were such that we might as well have used a random number generator. Many times I could have SWORN I heard huge differences, and it turned out to be the same cable I had just heard. One cable I was sure were alot better than the others turned out to be the cheapest thin cable. It was quite enlightening, actually, and the customer even had to concede to the facts that he couldn't pick either one of the cables in a truly blind test.
I'm not saying YOU cannot hear a difference in power cables, but I can't, and neither could the 10 or so hifi enthusiasts present at this blind test.
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To be serious, for a change, I feel that doing double blind tests as atledreier has done is the only way to say if it is worth the cost, or if it is purely snake oil.
In any amplifier/receiver the mains comes in and is immediately converted to DC.
If the power cables made a difference you would be able to measure it on the DC rails as noise or supply rail droop under load.
If this noise/droop was an issue then it would be a relatively simple task to replace the transformer, rectifier and capacitors with ones of superior performance and achieve far better results than spending money on expensive power cables.
In any amplifier/receiver the mains comes in and is immediately converted to DC.
If the power cables made a difference you would be able to measure it on the DC rails as noise or supply rail droop under load.
If this noise/droop was an issue then it would be a relatively simple task to replace the transformer, rectifier and capacitors with ones of superior performance and achieve far better results than spending money on expensive power cables.
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69 Posts
Sonnie,
We began our test today (session 1 for a reference).
Well, just when I was nearly convinced that power cables don't make a difference, my friend finally made his way over another friend of mine's house today with 3 different power cables. My friends system we tested them on has a Denon avr-3805, and the SVS SBS-01 speaker system. Nothing real fancy here, but solid equiptment for this basic test.
We ran the system at reference levels (00 master volume on the Denon). We changed out the power cables on the receiver and the PB10-NSD Sub. We didn't use any measuring tools other than our own ears for this session. All we used for a test DVD for todays beginning session (as I wasn't going to continue these sessions unless we all agreed, especially me since I'm the one possibly in the market for these cables, came to a definate conclusion as to whether we/I heard a significant difference or not) was the beginning scene of Star Wars 3 "Revenge of the Sith", Chapter 3, for about the first two minutes. The bass is very intense in this opening scene, as is the whole battle scene for that matter utilizing all speakers.
We listened/watched this scene 4 times with the stock cables, then with the cables he brought with him (PS Audio Plus 8 guage 2 meter on the receiver, and a "Magic" PC ran from the sub directly to the wall outlet). I have to say everyone, I DID certainly notice a difference. And, I didn't have to listen carefully either. It was overly apparent from the first sound. First, when we played this scene at reference levels, the Sub was right on the edge of bottoming out, or so it seemed,(this was with the X-over set to 80Hz on the Denon with the volume set to -5, and the master volume on the back of the sub turned up about 30%, or about the 4:00 position) as this scene has some serious LFE. Everything else sounded great. And, that little SBS-01 system really surprised me, but thats for another thread.
We then changed out the cables. Ok guys, I'm just telling you what we heard, so keep the gloves off.
First, the bass was noticeably more tame, and not so out of control as it was without the cable change, and was able to sustain the LFE without any sign of heavy stress like before. Also, the higher frequencies seemed to be not so in your face like before, and as the ships flew across the sound stage, it was more seemless, and less directional than before. So, I realize some may come back and disagree with me, but I really was trying to prove my point too, that being that this is nonsense. How can a PC have an audible difference and effect the sound characteristics? Well.... I don't know how this phenomenon works. But without doubt, I certainly noticed a difference grinning ear to ear in disbelief.
Next, for our second session, we're going to test these same cables on my system, which I already know it's sound charitaristics well with as many movies as I've watched. So stay tuned...... This second session will be utilizing these same power cords on my Denon 4308ci, Denon dvd-3800bdci & SVS PB12/Plus2. Thanks for all the great input from everybody. Kevin
We began our test today (session 1 for a reference).
Well, just when I was nearly convinced that power cables don't make a difference, my friend finally made his way over another friend of mine's house today with 3 different power cables. My friends system we tested them on has a Denon avr-3805, and the SVS SBS-01 speaker system. Nothing real fancy here, but solid equiptment for this basic test.
We ran the system at reference levels (00 master volume on the Denon). We changed out the power cables on the receiver and the PB10-NSD Sub. We didn't use any measuring tools other than our own ears for this session. All we used for a test DVD for todays beginning session (as I wasn't going to continue these sessions unless we all agreed, especially me since I'm the one possibly in the market for these cables, came to a definate conclusion as to whether we/I heard a significant difference or not) was the beginning scene of Star Wars 3 "Revenge of the Sith", Chapter 3, for about the first two minutes. The bass is very intense in this opening scene, as is the whole battle scene for that matter utilizing all speakers.
We listened/watched this scene 4 times with the stock cables, then with the cables he brought with him (PS Audio Plus 8 guage 2 meter on the receiver, and a "Magic" PC ran from the sub directly to the wall outlet). I have to say everyone, I DID certainly notice a difference. And, I didn't have to listen carefully either. It was overly apparent from the first sound. First, when we played this scene at reference levels, the Sub was right on the edge of bottoming out, or so it seemed,(this was with the X-over set to 80Hz on the Denon with the volume set to -5, and the master volume on the back of the sub turned up about 30%, or about the 4:00 position) as this scene has some serious LFE. Everything else sounded great. And, that little SBS-01 system really surprised me, but thats for another thread.
We then changed out the cables. Ok guys, I'm just telling you what we heard, so keep the gloves off.
First, the bass was noticeably more tame, and not so out of control as it was without the cable change, and was able to sustain the LFE without any sign of heavy stress like before. Also, the higher frequencies seemed to be not so in your face like before, and as the ships flew across the sound stage, it was more seemless, and less directional than before. So, I realize some may come back and disagree with me, but I really was trying to prove my point too, that being that this is nonsense. How can a PC have an audible difference and effect the sound characteristics? Well.... I don't know how this phenomenon works. But without doubt, I certainly noticed a difference grinning ear to ear in disbelief.
Next, for our second session, we're going to test these same cables on my system, which I already know it's sound charitaristics well with as many movies as I've watched. So stay tuned...... This second session will be utilizing these same power cords on my Denon 4308ci, Denon dvd-3800bdci & SVS PB12/Plus2. Thanks for all the great input from everybody. Kevin
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You really need a third person randomly changing the (hidden) cables and label them A,B,C while you score the changes/improvements.
You then need to compare your ratings against the other person's to see if they match and then look at which cable it was that you perceived as "best".
You then need to compare your ratings against the other person's to see if they match and then look at which cable it was that you perceived as "best".
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That is precisely what we're going to do. I agree, it's the only real and fair way to make true observations.
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Well done, I look forward to the results. :T
I have met people who made various claims and wouldn't do the test themselves.
they also made comments that people who didn't hear a difference had hearing that wasn't as acute as theirs. Go figure. :unbelievable:
On the other hand, if you do get a positive result then I applaude you for taking the time and effort.
Either way, please post the results as everyone here will benefit.
I have met people who made various claims and wouldn't do the test themselves.
they also made comments that people who didn't hear a difference had hearing that wasn't as acute as theirs. Go figure. :unbelievable:
On the other hand, if you do get a positive result then I applaude you for taking the time and effort.
Either way, please post the results as everyone here will benefit.
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51 Posts
Well, yeah, I'm a severe cynic with stuff like this. After all, copper is copper. But then, I won a Nordost Shiva and Vishnu power cable in a drawing. So, snickering all the way, I hooked them up this morning to my cd and prepro, both of whom were fed with 14 guage OEM type cords. I played three cuts three times each, from rock to female acapella, to get used to the sound of the stock cables, then switched to the Nordost. Knowing there would be no difference, I had already prepared the Audiogon ad. Whoa! Huge difference. Top middle and bottom. Way more open and super clear. First 4 notes told it all. My wife could tell the difference from the other end of the house. And, it played 2 db louder. I have no rational scientific explanation for it, it makes no sense, it costs WAY too much, but it was so obvious. I switched back and forth 3 times, and there was no comparison. I am keeping them. Would I pay for a new pair? Not at those prices, but I might be tempted. I was using an Arcam DV139, analog out, into a NAD T175, direct out, to VMPS 626's with TRT caps. The amp is a Wyred4Sound 7 channel 250wpc. It had the factory cord. I wonder if it would benefit? The best comparison I can give you is like the sound of a 44khz vs a 96khz recording. I still don't buy the interconnect, speaker cable thing, and I wrestle with a cord that costs 1/2 as much as my prepro, but since they were esentially free, I'll stick with it. The $18,000 Odin seems a little over the top, though.
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Hey Guys and Gals!
I apologize for the time lapse from our last post from "Session one", as honestly I've been bogged down at work and other activities that have kept us from making progress:wits-end:. I hope to have Session 2 completed by the end of September.
So please bare with us, and I'll report back as soon as we've had some time to continue. Thanks again for your patience.:bigsmile:
I apologize for the time lapse from our last post from "Session one", as honestly I've been bogged down at work and other activities that have kept us from making progress:wits-end:. I hope to have Session 2 completed by the end of September.
So please bare with us, and I'll report back as soon as we've had some time to continue. Thanks again for your patience.:bigsmile:
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51 Posts
I attended a Nordost demonstation and what is most apparent is that you need to start at the top, i.e. the source (cd, dvd) when using power cords and then work your way down through preamp, amp, and wall source. Simply changing my pc on the universal player made a huge difference. Since my last post I was lucky enough to win a Kubala Fascination power cord, and I plugged the amp into it. Even my wife could tell a difference without knowing or caring what I was doing. I am using fairly cheap interconnects, too. Perhaps we measure what we can't hear and hear what we can't measure. In theory, it shouldn't make much difference, but it does.
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