[.Spartan]

Aloha!

I'm setting up a small coffee shop and I want to use eight to twelve ceiling speakers for it. The general floor layout is rectangular about ten meters long by three meters across. I want to put speakers about every two meters in stereo but staggered as well as one in the restroom. The reason for this is because we can't have loud music in the place but I want crisp clean sounds throughout the place at a low sound level. The music that will be played will be mainly jazz vocal, Spanish guitar, fado and arias.

My question is what do I need to buy to make this happen at a reasonable cost? Most receivers only have 7.1 outputs and when I ask about using stereo on all channels and splicing two speakers on a line I get strange looks from people and told I need to buy a lot of stuff - expensive always. So what is the deal? I simply want to run in all the speakers in stereo with a ceiling mounted sub if I can find one. The main source of music will be from a computer. I have almost no technical knowledge of this stuff. Anyway information would be greatly appreciated.

 

[tonyvdb]

Hi and Welcome to the Shack,
A receiver with 7 Channels will give you a mode usually called "all channel stereo" but running twelve speakers will not work as you will drop the ohms to dangerous levels that will cause damage to the receiver. That said you could use 7 speakers, and add separate amps to power the rest if the receiver you get has pre-outs.
Given that you dont need volume The Onkyo TX SR706 is your best choice and gives you the ability to hook up the external amps.

 

[.Spartan]

Thanks for the welcome and information.

So if I understand things correctly I would need to run the additional five speakers from an amp going from the preamp output only. Would I use the main L&R channel only? Moreover I can not hook up two (2) speakers to a single channel?

Also what kind of speakers would be good (high fidelity & sub if possible) at a reasonable price.

 

[tonyvdb]

So if I understand things correctly I would need to run the additional five speakers from an amp going from the preamp output only.

Yes but only two speakers per channel so you would need two stereo amps at a cost of about $200 each.

Would I use the main L&R channel only? Moreover I can not hook up two (2) speakers to a single channel?

No, you would use all 7 speaker outputs on the back of the receiver.
You can not hook up more than one speaker to each channel or you would drop the load to 4 ohms or less and that is not good for a receiver like that.

Also what kind of speakers would be good (high fidelity & sub if possible) at a reasonable price.

Something like these would work well. You should also get yourself a good subwoofer. Do you have a budget for all of this?

 

[.Spartan]

Thanks again. OK. For the sake of simplicity I have about $2,500 to invest in this system I can go higher if absolutely necessary but I want to avoid it at all possible since I need money for cables and to pay someone to install the stuff for me.

Additionally, it does not need to be 12 speakers however. I figured that given the space but some design layout descriptions I have read said one speaker for two to three square meters is good (I dont believe it however). My only demand is that I want clean crisp full range sounds at about twice voice volume throughout the shop and the speakers all have to be in-ceiling.

For general speakers I'm looking at Jamo 10" 4 way 200w speakers. I dont need the 200w but think the 4 way is very important for sound clarity. Sub wise I'm looking at JBL Control 19 CS 8" subs or Atlas FAPSub 8". I would post links but I can being a newbie and all that jazz...

Receiver wise anything that is sold in Japan works for me.

 

[tonyvdb]

Speaker placement is going to be a key factor in how good it will sound. I dont recommend placing them directly above seating areas as they will be to loud for people sitting directly under them, placing them above the walkways is a better choice.
JBL makes a good sub however I would look at something a bit larger than an 8" due to the size of the room. Make sure that they are powered subs (built in amp).
I am sure you can find Onkyo receivers in Japan other options are Denon and Yamaha as well but dont go cheep as the receiver is the heart of the system.

 

[.Spartan]

I have to get the speakers via the Internet since ceiling speakers are basically not done here for some strange reason. So I'm kind of out on a limb looking for stuff to buy on-line without hearing anything and having to incur shipping as well as customs costs.

Right now I have a Bose six channel night club sound system which cost well over $15k but it is serious overkill for the place and more importantly I dont want to use it since the running cost would be well over $70 a day in electricity.

 

[tonyvdb]

Have you looked at JBL for in ceiling speakers? they have lots available here

 

[salvasol]

I'm using this speaker selector with matching impedance (to avoid damage to the receiver) in my house, I'm powering seven pairs (14 speakers) with a Sony STR-DG500 without problems.

Here is a link in case you want to go that route ...http://www.nilesaudio.com/product_selection.php?catcdID=7, I like this MSA-10A ...I'm sure you have to look online to find/compare prices and other models :bigsmile:

 

[.Spartan]

Thanks for the info guys. OK I have the following stuff selected speaker wise for about $2,700 from Cruchfield:
(1) Velodyne SC600IW + Amp
(7) Klipsch CDT-2800-C In-ceiling Speaker

However they wont send outside the US. I have tried over ten websites and no one will ship to Japan. I have to use USPS international but that will add another $600+ to the cost. consequently it will come about one thousand over budget and does not include a receiver, cables or install.

I'm starting to think it may be best to go with three very high end speakers plus a powered sub and go with a 5.1 system. What do you guys think?

@tonyvdb - yeah I'm trying to get in contact with JBL local rep but I have not had any luck yet.
@salvasol - that was what I was thinking originally get a switcher for anything past 7.1 but I was told by a store person that it would be a bad thing to do fidelity wise.

 

[tonyvdb]

Going with some reasonably good large bookshelf speakers placed around the perimeter of the room would also work, a total of 7 speakers with the center channel placed by the till would be your best bet and would work well.
What are the dimensions of the space?

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

My question is what do I need to buy to make this happen at a reasonable cost? Most receivers only have 7.1 outputs and when I ask about using stereo on all channels and splicing two speakers on a line I get strange looks from people and told I need to buy a lot of stuff - expensive always. So what is the deal?

The deal is you’re trying to use home equipment, and a home listening situation, for a commercial application. Neither works well, which is why you’ll seldom see commercial installation companies taking this route.

Regarding the latter, stereo seldom works well outside the home or automotive environment. The problem with stereo is that it works best in a limited “sweet spot.” In your situation, the only people who will enjoy the benefits of the stereo scenario you’re proposing will be the ones lucky enough to be sitting in the “sweet spot” at or near dead-center between two of the speakers. Everyone else will hear only the speaker closest to them. This is one reason why mono is generally the standard for commercial installations.

Regarding equipment, assuming you’re going to be open regular business hours, here’s a reality check: Consumer hi-fi equipment is not designed or built for the rigors of continuous duty, 6, 8, 10+ hours a day. And it certainly isn’t designed to drive numerous speakers for hours on end. If you go with a home receiver, plan on replacing it every few years, if that long.

Commercial audio installations usually go with 70-volt systems, which allow numerous speakers to be run reliably from a single amplifier channel. A 70-volt system might not be fully compatible with your desires for a hi-fi installation, however.

And there are some pitfalls with a full-range system that you might want to consider as well. Specifically, when the room fills up with background noise from people chatting, it will drown out or mask the sound from the main speakers, since your patrons' voices naturally inhabit the same frequency range as the singers and many instruments being reproduced by the sound system. However, the extreme highs and (especially the) lows will cut through the din like a knife, and that’s mainly what the patrons will be hearing. Enduring droning bass notes under your conversation gets irritating in a hurry. Thus, it would be unwise to go overboard with the subwoofers. Their extension should probably be limited to something like 80 Hz, if not a bit higher.

Personally I think you should reconsider the requirement for ceiling speakers. As Tony noted, and your research has shown, their spread is fairly limited, and the lower your ceiling is, the more it will take to evenly cover the room. For a room your size, you could easily cover the whole thing with only four wall-mounted JBL Controls or something similar, or maybe six if you’re really worried about even volume everywhere in the room, with the other two mounted at the half-way points on the long wall. Maybe a couple of 6” or 8” subs at the 1/3-points to get a bit below the wall speakers. You can probably run two speakers (or subs) per amplifier channel, so two relatively low powered commercial amplifiers would do the trick. Maybe a small mixer for the pre-amp (it’ll convert a stereo signal from your computer to mono) and an electronic crossover, and you’re in business.

Regards,
Wayne

 

[jackfish]

I would use a powerful integrated stereo amplifier such as an NAD C372 ($800) and an impedence matching distribution box such as a Niles SMS-10C ($290).

http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/C372-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier/

http://www.nilesaudio.com/product.php?prodID=SMS-10C&recordID=High Power Impedance Matching System&categoryID=Speaker Selectors&catcdID=7&prdcdID=FG00260

This will easily handle ten pairs of speakers and run continually for years at the volume you want. I would also consider wall mounted speakers rather than in ceiling and would forgo the subwoofer. I would consider Insignia NS-B2111 speakers (eight pairs for $704, $880 for ten pairs) with Vantage Point PSM-B wall mounts ($272 for 8 pair, $340 for ten pair).

"http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7705307&st=Insignia&lp=9&type=product&cp=1&id=1138085354138" Copy the url inside the quotes, paste into your browser, remove the space in the 11380853541 38 and hit the Enter key.

http://www.fadfusion.com/selection.php?product_item_number=20041001179

If you must get in ceiling speakers then I'd say Audiosource AS8C with an appropriate sized enclosure behind them would get the nod. Under $52 a pair right now on Amazon.

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AS8C-Eight-inch-Ceiling-Speakers/dp/B000E9DO96[/ame]

 

[.Spartan]

Aloha!

Sorry for the delay in responding to the thread guys. I have been very busy lately. Trying to run one company and start up another is demanding to say the least.

Anyway, I could not find anything that I like at a reasonable price point for import so I decided to go with a Yamaha wall mounted and free standing 7.1 Soavo speaker system, hooked up to a DSP-AX763 using Denon studio cable. The system comes in at a little over $10K installed but it is worth it to me. I should have very clean and crisp sound throughout the place and very low levels with at least a three (3) speaker focus throughout most of the place.

Now I have a big Bose night club system sitting here in my house with no idea what to do with it and a very angry wife...

Again I want to thank everyone for their input and help; it is appreciated.

BTW: I waited over a week for JBL to contact me. Sadly they emailed me yesterday - several days to late.

@Jack - thanks for the email.

 

[jackfish]

Wow! Going from a budget of $2,500 to $10,000 is quite a jump to be left with that system. Glad you like it.

 

[.Spartan]

It just turned into to much trouble language and time wise and the shipping costs were astonishing to say the least. I really wanted to go with a in ceiling system but everyone advised against it and I could not find the parts here -etc... So I got tired of dealing with everything and simply asked for the best overall system cost wise and that is what I purchased. Budget wise I wiped out my promotional, and opening party line items as well as dipped into the initial inventory money but I figure it was worth it.

Oddly enough, it was a Denon guy who sold me the Yamaha system. He was very professional to say the least.