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Discussion Starter #21
You and I are thinking alike :unbelievable: :yikes:

I liked your enclosure inside an enclosure idea.

That speaker is you show is similar to what I'm thinking, only upright with down-firing sub with upward facing sub-port. The upper 'mini'-cylinder would house the MTM or TM on a flat baffle, as in your example.

Now, I'm looking at whether I should use the tritrix, or a different proven design. I am finding that the long-ish baffle of the tritrix MTM design uses about twice the frontal area for the required volume (~.7ft^3 or 20L) because the resultant cylinder after accounting for drivers, port, baffle, is likely around 1.0ft^3 (30L), or double the optimal volume for the ported design.

Any ideas on another low-cost, yet competent proven design/kit? Perhaps using a dual 4" driver MTM, or 5.25" or 6.5" TM configuration? It only has to be flat to 80hz, but should handle 100wrms @8ohms, or even greater @4ohms input.
 

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There are a ton of great designs out there. There aren't a ton that fit your criteria but there are quite a few.

The Zaph ZA5.2 would work.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8648

Roman's Microbe would work if you ported it, sealed it barely hits 80hz. I'm using microbes that were redesigned to use a vifa XT25 tweeter and they sound incredible.
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Microbe SE/microbe SE.html

The Modula MT is a great design, but substantially more expensive than some of the others in your group.
http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13154

The RS150MTM or Lineup MTM would work.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28655

And there is The Girl From Ipanema
http://undefinition.googlepages.com/diy-thegirlfromipanema

These are all going to have superior highs and mids compared to the Tritrix kit, and are smaller. However as for sheer output volume and price, none of them are going to touch the Tritrix in that respect, 2x 5.5 woofers are just going to be able to push more air than 1 5 or 6 inch woofer, and all these designs are over $120. But they're smaller and sound better.

Edit* GR Research AV1C would also be a candidate. I don't know about their tweeters but the woofer used in this unit is supposed to be a great driver.
http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=135
 

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Discussion Starter #23
You're helping me a whole lot-I found the zaph, but not the others- the power handling may not be there on some of these, but should be fine for ht use crossed at 80hz, then, if I power it up for 2ch, I can move it from 80hz up to 100-150hz as the subs will be in stereo emanating from each speaker. If I can get into one of these for under $200 and have a marked sound improvement, I'll be golden. I'll look these over...
 

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Discussion Starter #24
I've been modeling mids in sealed enclosures along with the ED 12" driver, and the dayton 5.25" haven't handled the rated 30wrms as stated-more like 35wrms input as a pair. Doesn't winisd use rms for input power calculations?

A pair of peerless 5.25's with 5mm xmax modeled with 110w input vs the dayton's 2.5mm modeled with 30w input-and the spl output of the peerless' was much more in-line with the spl output of the ED 12" with 175wrms input. Obviously this is a big difference, and consequently has me worried about using the dayton's...

Since my preamp will handle the 12" to 5.25 xover duties, I'm thinking about these bargain peerless' mids again, possibly with the same dayton tweeter and maybe trying to learn the xover modeling software.
 

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That is possible, and if you pull it off, more power to you :T

Another thing you could look into is putting the Tritrix in a small box that is ported with a port tuning around 80hz to take advantage of the lowpass filter. Try playing with the porting of the dayton drivers, move it around 50-80hz and see how it affects the power handling. Put on a LPF and see what that does for you.

The excursion down to 80hz should be substantially reduced, increasing power handling, and excursion below 80hz wouldn't be much of an issue due to the sub/mid crossover.

Just dinking around with Winisd I put them in a 9 litre box tuned to 76hz and you can apply 30 watts without exceeding excursion till below 70hz, and peak output is over 105db.

You could use a 3" round 8" long port. Tho the first port resonance shows up at 850hz, don't know if that would be a problem or not... Anyways you see where I'm going with this.

Something to consider. If you really want to get into designing your own speakers you should. It seems awesome, I'd like to try it some day. However if you're trying to build something better than the Tritrix for not much more, by the time you buy a microphone, get some books, other measurement hardware, buy drivers, build prototype baffles, build prototype crossovers, possibly scrap those, buy more and do it again you'll have spent several hundred dollars plus your time. At that point you could have just built a pair of Natalie Ps, or Mini-Statements, or Dayton RS TMWW or Kahnspires. All large loud, powerful full range floor standing speakers that can be built for less than $600 on average, which is probably what you'd end up with sunk into designing your first set of 2 way speakers.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
I'm going to try double checking the modeling of the tritrix sealed for power handling as I didn't get the value you did-it surpassed the 2.5mm xmax around 80-110hz, at a much lower input than advertised. When I modeled ported, performance was really only affected below 80hz and even then power handling wasn't as advertised, so I'll have to check again.

Based on what I've got so far, my plan would likely be to use a peerless mid/dayton tweeter small sealed setup, and if it failed, go to the tritrix kit. My design will use a simple flat baffle that I can easily change if needed, volume sealed is very forgiving for 5.25 drivers, so I'd be out $120 or so if I have to go to the tritrix configuration. A better plan than $600+, eh?

Or maybe I should pick up the tritrix kit now- then add the 4 peerless drivers for $50 (to my door) for a total of $170 plus any xover mods I add. I'd be able to do A-B comparisons as well:nerd:
 

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Discussion Starter #27
A setback to option B is the tritrix now uses dual 4ohm mids, whereas it previously used dual 8 ohm mids in the triune format. My amps can handle the triune format's net 4 ohms no problem, however, the peerless mids are dual 8 ohm drivers, so I might ask if they can package the tritrix as the old triune for me, I hope :whistling:
 

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Let me know how it worked out. I had a set of 3way galaxy speakers that had a tweet, a mid and a 12" woofer. The woofer surround rotted out. Well I figure any 12 should work right? And any new 12 should sound better than a 20 year old woofer did so I bought some random 12" goldwood woofer.

The first one was the wrong impedence, it sounded horrible. Then I got a 4 ohm, at least it was loud enough now, but it still sounded like poopoo. I ended up shoving the speakers into the attic and trying to forget about them. Then one day I was cleaning the attic and saw them. Took out the perfeclty good but bad sounding 12s, modeled them in Winisd and forced them to be the subs in my 2 channel stereo set up. They sound great now. But in those galaxys, they were awful. All shrill, no bass at all :(
 

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Discussion Starter #29
I'm following you-I've modeled both sets of 5.25's in identical sealed volume, with the lower freq response curve almost identical given the same hpf from my preamp, only output being different. Both speakers will be well within their higher freq limit. The baffles on the tritrix is almost identical to the baffle from an nht speaker the peerless 5.25's were used, so the only real difference between the two should be the crossover, we'll see:whistling:

The fine print on the PE tritrix kit page allows comparable part substitutions, and 4 and 8 ohm drivers are priced the same!:T
 

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Awesome, that works out well for you, good luck with your project and let us all know how it works out for you. I can't wait to see the results :)
 

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I have a pair of Klipsch KSP-400's which look to be essentially what you're trying to accomplish.



Word of caution about combining subs with your two main speakers. Everyone knows that positioning of your main (stereo) speakers relative to your listening position (sweet spot) is critical for imaging and soundstage etc. And once you figure out those relative positions they're pretty much set in stone (or carpet). There is a major draw back to having your sub system co-exist in position with your main speakers, and that is the fact that you won't be able move the subs to a point in the room where THEY sound the best. They're "stuck" where the mains are and wherever that ends up being could be a spot which negatively impacts your bass response. I have a very odd shaped room and in order to get the powered subs in my KSP towers to sound decent at my listening position, it required significant equalizing. Conversely, if I had the ability to move the sub(s) independently of the mains, shifting them just a few feet along one of the walls would have cut my EQ needs to a bare minimum or perhaps even made them nonexistent.

Just something to consider. :huh:
 

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Discussion Starter #32
That's an excellent point. I'm hoping a couple features will help with those issues: I'm using 12" subs that can produce plenty of spl since they likely won't benefit from good corner loading and I'm also (shh, top secret:sneeky:) porting the sub chamber with 2 ports, with a 25hz tune, 18hz tune, and a usable sealed mode so I have some control on response and output- hopefully it will be enough!:bigsmile: I'm hoping for the best as I'll have ~$400 tied up in the complete passive speaker, plus the 285w/ch sub amp for $120 for just over $500 for the pair.
 

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You might get lucky. Though each of the subs will probably produce suitable SPL across the sub frequency range, I suspect you might run into trouble with certain frequencies canceling each other out or reinforcing each other excessively. Again this is highly dependent on location and room geometry. In my particular case I had a nasty dip at about 42hz and at 75hz, but a significant spike around 60hz as measured at the listening position. This was very noticeable by ear alone, and at the same time I could walk to other places in the room where those peaks/dips weren't audibly obvious at all. Either way, I wish ya good luck. It's a legit project, and I hope it turns out well!
 

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Yeah, with stereo subs, especially as speaker stands you sort of have a place picked out and hopefully they work there. I did a bit of reading and moved mine around my music room till I ended up with one against the back wall directly behind me, and one against the wall directly in front of me, myself being centered between the two. It sounds pretty flat, tho I have not measured them.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Those are very nice towers, and a nice layout in whole.:T My design will use a down-firing driver-hope that helps with the evenness.

Well, after looking extensively-the tritrix kit is a real recession buster, just as advertised; I've got a kit on the way:T I hope to get to this sooner than later. With a footprint of only 14.5" diameter (which will be tight with the 12"), I'll FIND a place to put these if they turn out nice:heehee:
 

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Yeah the Tritrix kit is currently the deal of the century. I would like something a bit more reference level myself but you can't beat what you get for the price. As for doing a down firing sub that has its own set of issues, you lose excursion to gravity so its not ideal, plus I think it causes the suspension to wear out faster, after all its never recommended to store speakers flat. But some drivers handle it better than others, everyone here can help with that too. Either way I can't wait to see some pics of how it turns out.
 

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If you currently have a sub you should probably set it in each of the prospective locations just to make sure that you do not have any bad room modes in those locations. It is possible that those locations could be bad for subs. Manufacturers integrate the subs into mains simply for convenience and not necessarily sound quality.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
Looking at my system, and reading a point by another member, I realize my mains are by far my weakest link. I have power to spare, and I would want a pair that could handle house-filling spl levels, but I'm not really sure what I need vs want, but I could: buy a pair of towers like these or these, or maybe sell my sole for these or my soul (all $2000 worth)for these. Or I could buy up several anarchy mids and plan to build a TMM or TMMM set once some plans are devised (maybe IF someone devised-no guarantee).
 
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