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Actually the pictured speaker IS veneered I belive, with a gloss black back and top. If you check out the build thread you'll see more pictures.
 

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Discussion Starter #45 (Edited)
I'm back! And still undecided:doh:

I have my set of 5" TM bookshelves for full surround (currently on the floor), a collection of amps/crossovers (please don't ask), and now NEED to decide on my bass bins-and could use your help! I want to obtain the best sound while utilizing the stands as bass bins. Keeping in mind that I have a Mal-X, but would like to be able to listen to music without needing it. My options are:

1) to build slim bass bins using 6.5" dual anarchy drivers, 30hz tune/25hz hpf for the front three (using active crossover and pro-amp power for top/bottom). Allows possibility to crossover bass bin to bookshelves at higher freq.

2) to build wider bass bins using lone/dual 8" or 10" drivers, sealed for the front three (using preamp's sub-out at 80hz.

3) to build down-firing sonosub bass bins using lone 8, 10, or even 12" drivers, sealed for the front three (again, using preamp's sub out at 80hz) These might be too big. The 12" is the only driver incapable of higher freqs.

I am using a makeshift computer, and consequently am having trouble modeling these drivers. The drivers under consideration are:

6.5" Exodus Anarchy $52ea Mms 26g Cms .49 Re 6.2 Sd 131 BL 9.76 Qms 6.7 Pe 100w Xmax 14mm

8" Peerless $32ea Le: 0.97 mH *Re: 3.4 ohms *Fs: 45 Hz *SPL: 85 dB 1W/1m *Vas: 0.72 cu. ft. *Qms: 6.19 *Qes: 0.96 *Qts: 0.83 *Xmax: 8 mm Pe 125w (This one has Miller & Kreisel on the oversized dustcap)

10" Peerless $35ea Le: 2.1 mH *Re: 6.7 ohms *Fs: 36 Hz *SPL: 89.5 dB 1W/1m *Vas: 2.58 cu. ft. *Qms: 2.80 *Qes: 0.65 *Qts: 0.53 *Xmax: 8.5 Pe 110w

12" Elemental Designs Qts: .31 Qes: .35 Qms: 3.33 Fs: 21.5Hz Re: 3.7 Vas: 162L Mms: 142.0g Bl: 15.00T*m SPL: 88.47dB Sd: 545cm² Xmax: 16.0mm

The Peerless drivers are listed by parts express as ideal for equalized, sealed designs, but I'm not sure why my model doesn't show cone excursion for these Peerless drivers.

The Exodus driver concerns me a bit, because it would be an expensive, or impossible, replacement in the future.

Budget basically allows for pairs of any driver to be used per bass bin.

:help:
 

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Discussion Starter #46
Ok, used work computer after hrs:whistling: But my sealed modeling for both peerless is not showing cone excursion:huh: I know the parts express specs are lacking several parameters, so maybe that's the cause. I've also got .9 something values for my qtc values for these sealed units:blink: Then, when I change volumes, little change in response.

When parts express states that a driver is 'perfect for equalized sealed box designs', I figured enclosure size for an 8" or 10" would be 1-3 ft³ Am I :coocoo:

Any ideas?
 

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Discussion Starter #48
Thanks Mike-PE is checking on that for me. Many drivers show freq response good to 2khz, but I'm skeptical. If I stretch my winisd freq response graph, it won't show breakups from a cone will it? I know these drivers for sub use won't play well up higher, but I'm not sure how high they'll go. I'd like my bass bins to be able to play up to 300-400 hz cleanly, however, I don't want my low end to necessitate an additional sub...
 

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Thanks Mike-PE is checking on that for me. Many drivers show freq response good to 2khz, but I'm skeptical. If I stretch my winisd freq response graph, it won't show breakups from a cone will it? I know these drivers for sub use won't play well up higher, but I'm not sure how high they'll go. I'd like my bass bins to be able to play up to 300-400 hz cleanly, however, I don't want my low end to necessitate an additional sub...
Finding a sub that plays up to 300-400hz is nearly impossible. I've never seen that driver, but ported the anarchy gets down to 50hz just fine. It can easily get up to 300-400hz.

The highest sub crossover I know off is the TC sounds 8" driver (soundsplinter) up to 200hz according to one of my speaker buddies who measured it's performance.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
Finding a sub that plays up to 300-400hz is nearly impossible. I've never seen that driver, but ported the anarchy gets down to 50hz just fine. It can easily get up to 300-400hz.

The highest sub crossover I know off is the TC sounds 8" driver (soundsplinter) up to 200hz according to one of my speaker buddies who measured it's performance.
True, but what about quality 8" or even 10" bass drivers that could be used in a pair for greater power handling, rather than dedicated sub drivers? Many popular brands (Emotiva 8.3) and diy (Natalie P) use dual 8's and go pretty low, plus I don't need it to play as high since I have a mid.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
I wanted to use smaller dual drivers, so as to keep cabinet width/volume down, hence the idea of using anarchy 6.5s. I've seen higher-end 3-way tower speakers use dual 8" drivers, often in a sealed configuration (eg emotiva), which in essence is the performance I'm trying to accomplish: front speakers that can be run full range for stereo music as well as when used for HT.

I had planned on spending about $100 on driver(s) per bin (LCR bins planned) I'd like to have a 4ohm load to maximize my pro-amp's headroom, but could run 8 ohm. I've also seen a high end speaker use a lone 10" driver, but I'm not sure I want to use that wide a cabinet, but I'd consider it. Perhaps something like this

Any driver suggestions?
 

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I am getting in late on this thread but I thought I would comment anyway. I have similar goals to yours but I am using down firing 15" sealed subs. I find that having the subs physically separate from my mains gives me the flexibility to move each to a better location. Having an active XO is definitely the way to go as well as separate sub equalization. Of course REW is indispensable for adjusting everything.
I listen to music/watch movies about 80/20 and I am extremely pleased with this arrangement. I only turn on the SVS sub for HT, but getting all three subs balanced in both the time and frequency domain can be tricky.
 

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Discussion Starter #53 (Edited)
I remember looking at your equipment list-mighty fine:T Reed, I'm curious what freq you cross your front mains to their respective subs?

There's an ongoing thread that relates to my needs here SteveC along with others propose that the weakest link in a typical bookshelf is the 80-400hz range, particularly if used full range rather than crossed to a sub at 80hz. I believe there is some merit there, but noone seems to have evidence.

Therefore, with the goal of obtaining the best sound quality and output in the front speakers, I'm going :dumbcrazy: wondering if a woofer, or 'super-woofer' as I saw it referred, handling perhaps 25-300/400hz (hpf protection @25hz) would be a better design choice than individual subwoofers handling <80/100hz for each front speaker.

I wonder what freq this active speaker uses to its bass driver (woofer or subwoofer) as it states 22hz-40khz with its sealed 10" configuration? Looks to be about 2.5ft³ internally.
 

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There are some sub/woofers that would play well up to 300-400hz. I can't think of too many 6' or 8" ones though. TC1000 8's would. Dayton RS8's might. I'm not sure about the cone breakup. Perhaps Kevin's Anarchy 6.5"s would be worth looking at? I can think of plenty of 10 and 12" drivers. Most of the AE drives would do it as would some of the stuff from Peerless or Hivi.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
Thanks Ricci, my real dilemma is whether to build for 25-300hz or 20-100hz, which would determine the design and driver selection :dontknow: I'll probably just end up building a pair of sealed sonosubs and hope for the best unless someone has a more informed idea of optimal driver usage in this situation.
 

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I believe the dayton reference subs are supposed to be good up to almost 1khz. Don't quote me on that tho but I remember reading a review by Zaph or somebody who says other than slightly lower than average sensitivity for a bass driver it could be used as such.
 

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You can also do a sub for the 20hz-80hz frequency range and then build a couple of 8"-10" woofers to cover the 80hz-400hz (mid bass) placed close to the front towers to minimize localization issues, you will need something like a Behringer DCX 2496 to do the crossovers, eq., etc. If your mains are on the small side (like mine), this is probably one of the best things to do. You could also DIY full tower speakers with the 8"-10" woofers integrated in them for the best flexebility, that's what I'm thinking of doing, but my problem is space issues in my room. I would have to re-organize the whole room for them. My under 100hz is covered, I just need more pop in the 100hz-500hz area. Upgrading my speakers to help in that area is my next project, but they can't be too big.
 

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I remember looking at your equipment list-mighty fine:T Reed, I'm curious what freq you cross your front mains to their respective subs?

There's an ongoing thread that relates to my needs here SteveC along with others propose that the weakest link in a typical bookshelf is the 80-400hz range, particularly if used full range rather than crossed to a sub at 80hz. I believe there is some merit there, but noone seems to have evidence.

Therefore, with the goal of obtaining the best sound quality and output in the front speakers, I'm going :dumbcrazy: wondering if a woofer, or 'super-woofer' as I saw it referred, handling perhaps 25-300/400hz (hpf protection @25hz) would be a better design choice than individual subwoofers handling <80/100hz for each front speaker.

I wonder what freq this active speaker uses to its bass driver (woofer or subwoofer) as it states 22hz-40khz with its sealed 10" configuration? Looks to be about 2.5ft³ internally.
Glen, I appreciate the compliment. I believe that setting the XO frequency is fundimental and is the third step I take when tuning this system (after positioning the speakers and sub woofers and then setting the relative main amp vs sub amp gain). I have found that in my setup a XO freq of 60Hz to 80HZ gives me the smoothest freq. plot. I use a Behringer CX2310 which employs a Linkwitz-Riley cross over which preserves phase alignment at the XO point. However, I have about 14 line-of-sight inches between the subwoofer and main speaker voice coils. As a result, I have a dip at the XO point. The CX2310 does not have time alignment adjustment which I need to correct this. I may switch to the CX3410which has that capability however it has a lot of other features I don't need and I hate to have anymore opamps in the signal path than necessary.

The Studio 20 V.3 has an advertized freq. response of 54Hz to 22kHz. The anechoic frequency response peaks between 100Hz and 110Hz and is relatively flat there after. I don't understand the argument about the 80Hz-400Hz weakness in book shelf speakers, at least in regard to the Studio 20. After equalization, the subwoofers can handle the 22Hz to 100Hz range with ease. Adding the SVS sub gets me down to 15Hz.
 

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Discussion Starter #59 (Edited)
Well, I've got my project finished, for now. I went with three sealed sonotube bass bins using EDesigns E3.12 drivers in each. My wife liked the idea of matching the 'Tympanic Titanic', as she refers to the Mal-X LLT.

I'm using a pair of these below my LR MB Quart bookshelf speakers for the time being as our living room is odd. I went ahead and produced a third bass bin for future center use, and am now just using it in my office for music. I squeezed the 12" drivers into 14" diameter sonotube (don't do this!) and it barely fit:sweat: for a net internal volume of 1.9 ft³. A bit lower Q, but it was necessary to obtain the overall height for my bookshelves. Due to the stair landing, I used a sono spacer to elevate the bass bin and bookshelf there. I also built matching sono-stand plates for the future bookshelf surrounds for when we move.

I've got the pair of bass bins driven by a passively cooled proamp with 275w/ch, crossed over at 80hz. I'm hoping I can get my computers squared away and learn rew to use it, as I get gain from the dual 12's that I don't with the Mal-X. So far, I really like what I hear with music and especially movies. I no longer localize the Mal-X pressure coming from the rear, very nice indeed.

I've been scraping away at getting these done and didn't get many photos, but the build was done exactly the same as my Mal-X, if you want to see how I did it, except no port, check it out.

Other than advising against squeezing a driver into too small a sonotube, I learned that a little carpet glue goes a LONG WAY, and that it is messy, messy, messy:rant: Use only a thin coat on the carpet. I also found that applying glue to the carpet from one end to most of the other worked well, but leave plenty of uncovered carpet, then cut the carpet to match the long seam, then check and re-cut if necessary, THEN apply the glue to the clean end and complete the job. I have one not so clean seam, one clean one, and finally, a very clean seam.

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Finish Set s.JPG

Finished Set 2 s.JPG

Left Bass Bin-s.JPG

Left Bin 2 s.JPG

Left w Stand s.JPG
 
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