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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys!

Good news for those interested in subjective SQ tests. With the arrival of my TC-3000 I will soon have in my posession a total of 3 15" drivers. All three model ridiculously well in my 4ft^3 box (thanks again Stevenn) and will be put through their tests.

Tests will consist of a few in-room FR measurements with and without EQ, and a max SPL test with the TC-3000 for kicks. With it's 46mm of xmech I am not worried about over excursion in a box this size, its the amp clipping i'd have to worry about. What a robust driver :)

In case you guys don't know, the other contenders are the old school Ascendant Audio Avalanche 15, and Tumult 15d2 (still alive and kicking ) and will all be placed in the same box! :bigsmile:

to be continued...
 

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Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

Hey Robert... would an SS RL-p15 be a contender among these or does it not fit into what you are looking for? I know the Tumult is a pretty serious driver from what I've seen of it. I think the SS drivers are similar to the TC's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

Yeah the SS is VERY similar to the TC-3000. As a matter of fact they may use a very similar motor design. So in some ways they're based off of eachother with a few differences. One of those differences being the Rl-p 15 will be a bit more capable than the TC-3000 in large vented allignments probably due to a lower Bl rating than the TC-3000. The Tc-3000 will be better in a sealed alignment with a slight edge in the Xmax arena. Both will probably have similar thermal limits to eachother.

I'd feel comfortable saying the SS rl-p probably would've done the same job as the TC-3000. Xmax would've been more of a limiting factor in that situation though.
 

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Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

Tests will consist of a few in-room FR measurements with and without EQ, and a max SPL test with the TC-3000 for kicks. With it's 46mm of xmech I am not worried about over excursion in a box this size, its the amp clipping i'd have to worry about. What a robust driver
Hey X, this is going to be seriously interesting:cool:
 

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Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

Hey guys!

Good news for those interested in subjective SQ tests. With the arrival of my TC-3000 I will soon have in my posession a total of 3 15" drivers. All three model ridiculously well in my 4ft^3 box (thanks again Stevenn) and will be put through their tests.

Tests will consist of a few in-room FR measurements with and without EQ, and a max SPL test with the TC-3000 for kicks. With it's 46mm of xmech I am not worried about over excursion in a box this size, its the amp clipping i'd have to worry about. What a robust driver :)

In case you guys don't know, the other contenders are the old school Ascendant Audio Avalanche 15, and Tumult 15d2 (still alive and kicking ) and will all be placed in the same box! :bigsmile:

to be continued...
a warning here Ex...the tc3000 will be in an extremely low qtc. alignment compared to the Tumult driver...probably around .4Q in 4.3 cubic feet...the difference will probably be noticeable from the other two drivers...it won't be as warm and you may have to increase the subwoofer level in your receiver/pre pro...just a heads up...i just finished a 1x15 with the new tc3000...

3.6 cu. ft. plus ~3/4 lb. of polyfill...the lowest Fb i could reach was ~30 Hz...would'nt go any lower...Qtc. =.42-.427...i have to turn sub level up to +8 dB to equal the 2x15 @ +2 dB...at 4.3 cubes, you'll be in the .4-.42 range...like i said, you may have to juice it a little...keep me informed on this coming test...thanks, martin
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

Hey martin, thanks a lot for the heads up. I was definitely aware of what you mention, although not to that much of an extent (+8db, wow!). But then again thats with 1 driver vs dual drivers with the two drivers possibly being fed a healthier supply of power from the Qsc, (would this even matter?)

One thing I did forget to mention is that neither the Tumult or Ava15 would be able to handle a bridged Ep1500 in a 4ft^3 sealed box without exceeding it's mechanical limits down low (well, maybe the Tumult could but then I'd still have to be careful). The TC-3000 on the other hand, will handle the bridged Ep1500 in a box this size.

The max spl test of the TC-3000 will be taken with each pair of it's VC's wired for 4 ohms being fed by each channel of the Ep-1500 for somewhere in the neighborhood of 900watts. So, the idea of being able to handle this much power in that box in my room is exciting :holycow: . That being said, the Tc-3k w/ 900 watts vs the Ava15/Tumult w/ 450 watts should be an interesting comparison.

What would you suggest I do if I find the TC-3k to be a little bit too "dry" sounding?
 

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Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

Yeah the SS is VERY similar to the TC-3000. As a matter of fact they may use a very similar motor design. So in some ways they're based off of eachother with a few differences. One of those differences being the Rl-p 15 will be a bit more capable than the TC-3000 in large vented allignments probably due to a lower Bl rating than the TC-3000. The Tc-3000 will be better in a sealed alignment with a slight edge in the Xmax arena. Both will probably have similar thermal limits to eachother.

I'd feel comfortable saying the SS rl-p probably would've done the same job as the TC-3000. Xmax would've been more of a limiting factor in that situation though.
Actually the TC-2000 and the SS RL-p are more closer since they both have the TC-9 motor. The TC-3000 has a TC-3HP motor. It has more excursion and more motor force, though a little bit more "peaky" BL curve than TC-9 has. Both have a 3" VC.
 

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Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

Hey martin, thanks a lot for the heads up. I was definitely aware of what you mention, although not to that much of an extent (+8db, wow!). But then again thats with 1 driver vs dual drivers with the two drivers possibly being fed a healthier supply of power from the Qsc, (would this even matter?)

One thing I did forget to mention is that neither the Tumult or Ava15 would be able to handle a bridged Ep1500 in a 4ft^3 sealed box without exceeding it's mechanical limits down low (well, maybe the Tumult could but then I'd still have to be careful). The TC-3000 on the other hand, will handle the bridged Ep1500 in a box this size.

The max spl test of the TC-3000 will be taken with each pair of it's VC's wired for 4 ohms being fed by each channel of the Ep-1500 for somewhere in the neighborhood of 900watts. So, the idea of being able to handle this much power in that box in my room is exciting :holycow: . That being said, the Tc-3k w/ 900 watts vs the Ava15/Tumult w/ 450 watts should be an interesting comparison.

What would you suggest I do if I find the TC-3k to be a little bit too "dry" sounding?
cure the dry sound two ways: add wood blocks to decrease the internal volume or shape with EQ...the latter being the better way to go...not hard to eq some midbass into the alignment...AYK, the tc3k already sports a 3dB sens advantage over the Tumult...add 3 dB more (rms x 2) and it becomes less of contest...spl wise anyways...on one hand, you have the distortion advantage of the xbl^2 coil...but on the other hand you have a driver that won't have to move as far to produce the same spl...and won't compress as easily...so there's some mitigation here...i too would be concerned for the Tumult in a box that large...it's .75 cubic foot larger than my old Tumult box...that spider/tinsel apparatus seems not to like a big box...the Tumult is at home around 3ft3 and powered up the wazoo...Bosso would tell you this all day long...i think the Rhythmik is using a version of the TC1000 from tc sounds, so it won't hold up in that box size either...

the tc3000 is just a magnificent driver for sealed applications, large or small...very flexible...just keep adding drivers...i'm up to three now...i guess i'll eventually end up with four...two 2x15's in anything south of 2000ft3 would give all you could handle in VLF:boxer: ...unless you're looking to dig up 5 Hz...the 3x15 is absolutely gut [email protected] 3.5 meters: 109 dB @ 10 Hz (10% THD):flex: ...most pristine 10 Hz sine i've heard/felt yet...
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

Actually the TC-2000 and the SS RL-p are more closer since they both have the TC-9 motor. The TC-3000 has a TC-3HP motor. It has more excursion and more motor force, though a little bit more "peaky" BL curve than TC-9 has. Both have a 3" VC.
Yes, the TC-2000 and rl-p 15 do share the same motor. I never said the TC-3000 and rl-p 15 share the same motor ;).
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

cure the dry sound two ways: add wood blocks to decrease the internal volume or shape with EQ...the latter being the better way to go...not hard to eq some midbass into the alignment...AYK, the tc3k already sports a 3dB sens advantage over the Tumult...add 3 dB more (rms x 2) and it becomes less of contest...spl wise anyways...on one hand, you have the distortion advantage of the xbl^2 coil...but on the other hand you have a driver that won't have to move as far to produce the same spl...and won't compress as easily...so there's some mitigation here...i too would be concerned for the Tumult in a box that large...it's .75 cubic foot larger than my old Tumult box...that spider/tinsel apparatus seems not to like a big box...the Tumult is at home around 3ft3 and powered up the wazoo...Bosso would tell you this all day long...i think the Rhythmik is using a version of the TC1000 from tc sounds, so it won't hold up in that box size either...

the tc3000 is just a magnificent driver for sealed applications, large or small...very flexible...just keep adding drivers...i'm up to three now...i guess i'll eventually end up with four...two 2x15's in anything south of 2000ft3 would give all you could handle in VLF:boxer: ...unless you're looking to dig up 5 Hz...the 3x15 is absolutely gut [email protected] 3.5 meters: 109 dB @ 10 Hz (10% THD):flex: ...most pristine 10 Hz sine i've heard/felt yet...
Thanks a lot for that ;) Guess I should order up another while they're still on sale :devil:
 

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Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

Even in a 2ft^3 enclosure the Tumult doesn't really like 2400W! :) Well, at least not with an LT circuit in the loop as well. Although, mechanical limits were never reached, thermal limits were, causing one of the VC's to fry on the Pod Race scene.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

Even in a 2ft^3 enclosure the Tumult doesn't really like 2400W! :) Well, at least not with an LT circuit in the loop as well. Although, mechanical limits were never reached, thermal limits were, causing one of the VC's to fry on the Pod Race scene.
I always wondered how you fried that Tumult :yikes:

In other news. Looks like I won't be receiving the driver until 2-3 weeks from now when they build up the new batch. :hissyfit:
 

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Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

Yes, the TC-2000 and rl-p 15 do share the same motor. I never said the TC-3000 and rl-p 15 share the same motor ;).
You said "Yeah the SS is VERY similar to the TC-3000. As a matter of fact they may use a very similar motor design.", and that's not true. ;) Replace the TC-3000 with TC-2000, and it's ok.
 

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Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

but on the other hand you have a driver that won't have to move as far to produce the same spl...
What do you mean? They have almost identical Sd, so both will have to move exactly similarly to produce same SPL. Only the power needed will differ.
 

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Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

Almost identical Sd? I thought the Adire 15" drivers have an Sd of around 740cm^2, while the TC drivers have an Sd of somewhere around ~830cm^2.

Also, the sensitivity of the 3000 is ~3dB greater than the Tumult.
 

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Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

Almost identical Sd? I thought the Adire 15" drivers have an Sd of around 740cm^2, while the TC drivers have an Sd of somewhere around ~830cm^2.
That's not simply possible. They both have a 15" cone, yes the TC-3000 has a more narrower upper surround, but the difference isn't that large. And in any case, for example 50 cm^2 difference in Sd requires only ~1mm of more excursion to achieve the same SPL.


Also, the sensitivity of the 3000 is ~3dB greater than the Tumult.
The sensitivity doesn't affect how much excursion is needed for some specific SPL. The more sensitive driver needs only less power to do it. I would also be very careful when citing announced sensitivities, real measurements could reveal some very interesting things... :rubeyes:
 

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Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

That's not simply possible. They both have a 15" cone, yes the TC-3000 has a more narrower upper surround, but the difference isn't that large. And in any case, for example 50 cm^2 difference in Sd requires only ~1mm of more excursion to achieve the same SPL.
I don't see why you think it is simply not possible. Afterall, we have JL who calls their ~729cm^2 driver a 13" driver. There is no law that says all 15" drivers have ___Sd.

And I never said that the sensitivity affects how much excursion is needed for a specific spl, but it surely affects how much power is needed for two drivers to play at a certain spl. I believe that is what Kramskoi was referring to...
 

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Re: Comming soon, subjective SQ tests.

I don't see why you think it is simply not possible. Afterall, we have JL who calls their ~729cm^2 driver a 13" driver. There is no law that says all 15" drivers have ___Sd.
FIY the JL 13W7 has 693 cm^2 of Sd. http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?series_id=10

Since the basket diameter for a nominal 15" driver is pretty constant, the only thing that can possibly make the Sd go up or down, is the size/profile/position of the top surround. JL uses a special technique where the surround is assembled on the very edge of the basket, thus making some more room for the cone itself. I would also like to point out that the way different manufacturers measure their Sd isn't constant. Some include for example 1/3 of the width of the top surround, some don't.

But if I would measure (GP) both the Tumult and the TC-3000 at same excursion, I'm pretty sure their SPL wouldn't differ that much, probably less than 1 dB.
 
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