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I have been wanting to build a better L/R speaker to replace my ultra cheap SLA's. After watching others build countless "amazing for dollar," builds in the USA I have been trying to build one myself. Unfortunately it never is going to be cheap and satisfy my wants.

So after reading Tux's 1099 thread on another forum I have decided to try and build a MTM that will be close to the sensitivity around 99db. Thats the goal but I am not going to par take in every simulation to get there. I know I will be very close to the goal with the components I want to use.

I was originally going to build a vertical MTM horizontal center. I also was going to use the SEOS wave guides and other components but that got to costly. I have collected many parts over the years so I was going to try and use some of those parts.

SO I started to look at what I have that could fit a slimline enclosure. I have some 8" square JBL wave guides that I could use. Bad thing is they need screw on CD's. They are not many of those around anymore. I could use an adapter but that is more money. I saw that SEOS guys used to have the DNA-150 CD that is screw on and that would work perfectly. I dont need a huge powerful CD. Just something that can do 2Khz crossover and the DNA-150 is perfect for me. BUT they are not in stock.:hissyfit:

SO after a few months had gone by I kept mentioning this to others and after chatting with the designer I was able to get 5 DNA-150's for 150aud roughly. That is awesome. Te closest thing I could find was $100 per CD. SO huge savings there.



SO then I looked at 8" drivers to go with the 8" wave guide I had. I looked at Eminence Celestion and 18 Sound. These were the cheapest options for me. And out of those the best one for the money was the Celestion TF0818.


These will do 60-70hz ported in about 1.2cuft. Port resonance and chuffing are also not a problem with these woofers when pushed to Xmax. SO win win. For four of these I would have to pay 330aud. SO not bad. BUT I always wonder about wanting more. SO I looked back at the 18 Sound drivers. 8NMB420 and 8NW650. Both are perfect for my wants but the 420 requires a 2cuft cabinet to equal the 650. The 650 like a TINY enclosure. SO I am now waiting to hear back from the dealer here to see if these 650's can be bought with my budget. Probably not because the 420's are about 150each and thats pushing it. Thats double the price of the 818's. BUT since this is a slow build I might as well see if I can buy these. Would be nice.

So after simulating the 650's I ran into the problem of having a port large enough to keep chuffing away but small enough to keep the port resonance out of the band width. SO this was almost impossible to find an answer. I kept trying varying sizes and still had the problem. Even when only using 100watts total there was still chuffing. :huh:

SO I didnt know what I was going to do. SO after looking at other builds I thought maybe the only way to make this work would be if I used a mid and crossed the 8's lower. So I started looking at midranges and different port sizes again for the 8's. And I could keep chuffing away and have a port resonance around 1500-1800hz. So that means a 750-900hz crossover. SWEAT!!!!!:R

But now it was on to finding mids. I had already planned on buying some mids for another project so I looked at those mids again. I also wanted to do something that was similar to Tux's 1099 look.


SO to match the 8" WG I was looking at using dual 4" mids. I was going to be using the Visaton midranges because they are cheap and they are here in Australia. So after looking at a few different models I decided for either the M10 or FR10/FR HM10.

Here is the FR of the M10. It is closed back and why the huge hump before Fs.


Here is the open back FR10.


And the FR10 HM


The FR10 is very flat and probably what I will go with. BUT I dont like the look of those cones. IDK but the M10 looks perfect but I hate the hump. I could take some of that out in the crossover but I think it will prove to still be there when everything else is done. SO still need to figure that out. They are $20each so I may by both and see which I like.

Moving along......
I also got rid of my 21" subwoofers so I am now subless. I do have a 3cuft enclosure ported at 42hz roughly that has been keeping me very happy though. It is a bit out of place though. SO with these new MTM/WTMW design I am going to make the 15's built in with the WTMW design. The WTMW will only need about 1-2cuft depending on drivers used. The 15's will do fine in 3cuft ported at 40hz. I could go smaller if I have to because of less room available. I have some new 15's(18 Sound W750) and they like large cabinets. BUT 3cuft is the max they are going to get. SO with a 50" tall cabinet by 11" wide by 17" deep I should be able to squeeze everything into one cabinet.

Yes the 15's will be side firing. it was the only way to get them i the enclosure. They will look like the Definitive Technology BP flagship enclosures just not as pretty.

So a few things to work out and a few things to test and I should then start building.

And in regards to a center channel I dont have room to have anything big. BUT I will be builing a center channel that I connect when watching movies and put away when I am not. So that speaker will be a floor standing design also. But not very tall. I will build a stand for it so it sits in front of my entertainment unit. There are to many problems with MTM setups. BUT some of those I can deal with. But a horizontal MTM is to many for me. So I will be using some more spare parts I have collected and using a QSC 152i WG I have with dual 8's side by side underneath.

So almost exactly like this picture.


I will probably be using BMS 4550 CD's because I need CD's capable of 1200hz crossover. I would like to possibly use a DNA360 but will have to wait and see. I would like to push the crossover down to 1000hz also if I can. That would make it a lot easier on the ports for the center channe. BUT sealed is an option also. Just not one I like to look at when simulating. :Dl

Wow very long winded. BUT I figured maybe others would be interested. Dont expect a lot of theory on this one. I will be building this with some simulations and then just improving as I go. And even if no one is interested it is great to have a thread on my thoughts and ideas.:coocoo:
 

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They should be fun. I need to stay away from subwoofers for a while. I have two more of those to build and then hopefully that will be it.
 

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It's nice to be able to mix it up. I'm happy to throw in my 2¢ whenever you are seeking commentary :cop:
 

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Just got the CD's today. So happy. I thought it was going to be next week.
 

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Thanks Tux for popping in.

I will soon have a listen to the CD and WG in the next few minutes. I have some caps laying around from another experiment which would allow for a 500hz Hpass. Wopnt be cranking these or anything. Just having a listen but I do want to have some sort of Hpass on them. So 500hz will be it then.

I plan on building a mock crossover board with lots of alligator crimps so I can switch out caps for each component. So then I can see what it sounds like with different Hpasses and low passes. I also want to do a lot of manual testing with my ears. I dont like living in simulation land. And while something may look better in a simulation I might not like it by ear.

Cant wait. Just wish I had more caps already. I will go buy some tomorrow. Will have a very small collection then and then go from there.
 

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I DO 2. LOL

I just got some prices on the 18 Sounds woofers. The NW650 was cheaper than I thought. It will cost $188 each. Which is about double the price of the Celestion's and only 25 more than the 18 Sound MB420's.

If I go with the Celestion I will most likely buy the Visaton mids for a 3way setup. Which then adds 25 dollars to the 85 price of the Celestions. So they are not as far apart as I thought they would be price wise from the others.

The biggest problem with any of these drivers has been the port resonances. It is very difficult when using the 650 in any type of port size and using enough power to reach Xmax. Impossible so far. So if I went with these drivers I would use them in sealed cabinets. Then just build a simple 2 way.

The MB420 with -3db power to Xmax can be done with a 700hz crossover with ok port speed. Under 30m/s though. But workable. And when using these woofers I would use the 4" mids which then makes the cost exactly the same as the 650's.

Then there is the Celestion. I CAN make this work with a 70hz ported cabinet and a port size with a resonance that will work in a 2 way configuration. And this is the cheapest option. Win Win.

BUT seeing how I really want to push the envelope with this build, if budget will allow, I really want to do a 3way. After reading so much about the 1099 reviews I am wanting to try the same thing in a smaller size.

AND to add to that I dont believe my simulations with the Celestion are correct.

In my simulation I used 150watts for input. Then applied Hpasses where needed. The cabinets are not ported at the same frequency. I used what WiniISD suggested except for the Celestions. I tuned those at 70hz.

So 1cuft for all drivers.
Celestion 70hz 67hz Hpass Violet
MB420 60hz 50hz Hpass Grey
650 .5cuft sealed cabinet Yellow
Beta 8a 65hz 60hz Hpass Orange

SO right off the bat the 650's are out. I really wanted to use those also. The Celestion claims to have a larger Sd. SO I tried to change Sd to 220 to have the same as the MB420. Yet every time the Celestion seems to have more SPL then others. Doesnt make sense. Watts are watts so I am not sure about that simulation. The Celestion should be very close to the Eminence.:huh:

All the drivers are fine excursion wise.The MB420 could take more wattage hence the lower Hpass. BUT while searching for maximum spl I am just going to go the route of using these drivers with a simple AVR. No other power source. Most of the 18 Sound drivers can take about 400watts when Hpassed to hit Xmax. Other options have been the B&C but all needed more power and then I had to pay for shipping charges. So those were out from the get go.

Still a long way to go but I think I will be ordering some MB420's soon. I have the Eminence 8a already. So I will use those for the center channel. I would like to use all the same drivers and CD's but its just not going to happen with my constrained budget.

I will also be looking at getting a plate amp for amplification instead of a stand alone.:spend: This will be for the side firing 15. So things will be going slow. BUT at least documented.
 

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So after settling on the 18 Sound NMB420 it turns out that they are out of stock on those. SO they will have to do another batch of those. That wont happen until middle of May. And then another 1-2months for delivery after they are made. So I am thinking about going back to the cheaper Celestion.

They do alright and perform almost exactly the same as the NMB420 with 150watts. SO it will save me money and thats a good thing. I still plan on using a plate amp for the 15" that will be going in the bottom of the tower.

So with the savings over the 420 I should be able to get the plate amps sooner. I thought about getting a dsp power amp for the 15's or just a power amp but I need want 800watts at 8ohms per channel. I also wanted something silent. While I know there are always the Inuke amps I just wanted something different. So I will be going with the Hypex 400 plate amps. They can deliver 1200watts in 8ohms and that will be enough. For now. LOL

But Celestion 8's should be purchased in a few weeks. I will be buying the mids hopefully this coming week. Then I will try and test out the mids and CD together on a mock up baffle. I have a active crossover that I can use for eq delay and other things. So should be good.

Still a bit bummed about the NMB420 speakers but I guess I should have gone the Celestion route anyways because they are a savings which will afford me the plate amps sooner.

I also am thinking of cancelling my other projects I was going to do using the four 18 Sound 15W750 drivers and just selling those. Brand new in box and the only thing I did was plug them into my amp to make sure they work. SO I should be able to get 75% from them which would be great. I am realistic and want to move on.

So, slow project but I am slowly getting there. Also had a chat with Tux so more and he suggested the 3.3" drivers from Visaton for my mids. They were an option of something in Australia already and they cost about 20 dollars each. SO I should have four of those by the end of this week.:D
 

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So after looking at what I can get with 150watts and maximum spl around the crossover point of 80hz I came up with these. Celestion likes a higher tune but 70hz is what I want to go with. The eminence will be around 65hz. I havent decided yet on the port sizes for that one. I will most likely do a long square port under neath the side by side 8's for the center. Crossover point of 1000hz is easy to get with the eminence speakers and 1cuft cabinet.

I have about 1.7-3cuft to play with in the enclosure. WiniISD suggests 1.7 with a 39hz port. I like the larger volume as it boosts the lows. And since I wont have subs for a while(lower than 30hz) I figured I would go with the bigger cabinets.

As you can see all speakers are within their limits. I was only giving the 15's 850watts because that was what I was using for Xmax before. The plate amps are capable of 1200watts into 8ohm according to Mr Hypex. So more than I need. Should be fun when done.





 

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Very slow work in progress here. I AM hoping to try the mids and CD/Horn combo together this week. Should be fun. Active will make things easier to dial in and then hopefully get something that sounds pleasing to the ears.

Hardest thing will be for me to get the active crossover done in a passive crossover setup. Will be my first full on full range crossover build. Will be using the cheapest crossover parts I can find. Then will eventually add in some more expensive parts I have laying around from another collection. (Obligato, Jupiter Flat, and some Deuland Alexander caps.):reading:
 

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So everything has been ordered. No plate amps but that will be the very last thing I order. And with everything else going on I dont know 100% if I am going with those. Plate amp wise they are fantastic but money talks. I have an amp now that will power them for now.

And of coarse there always seem to be something wrong when ordering. I was trying to order 16/4ohm speakers. And the only thing available was 8ohm. SO without having to wait for ever I just ordered the 8ohm version.

Looks like I will have a 4ohm bass section and a 4ohm mid section with a 8ohm high section. Not sure how that will work out in regards to final impedance but I was hoping for a 6ohm and up. SO we will see.
 

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Got my mids yesterday. Wasnt able o do anything besides hook them up to my AVR and have a listen. Nasal sounding a bit. LOL There just free air and will be building a box for them today if I can. Hoping to also get the wave guide cut out so I can listen to the mids beneath the WG.

I have slowly been drawing a mockup design on a scrap piece of 12mm ply I had. I hope to cut that out today. It wont be pretty because I have to get a new router so I will be using my jig saw to cut everything out.

I will add some pictures of these 3.3" mids I got later on. These little guys are quite heavy for how small they are. SO more news to come.......
 

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So everything has been ordered. No plate amps but that will be the very last thing I order. And with everything else going on I dont know 100% if I am going with those. Plate amp wise they are fantastic but money talks. I have an amp now that will power them for now.

And of coarse there always seem to be something wrong when ordering. I was trying to order 16/4ohm speakers. And the only thing available was 8ohm. SO without having to wait for ever I just ordered the 8ohm version.

Looks like I will have a 4ohm bass section and a 4ohm mid section with a 8ohm high section. Not sure how that will work out in regards to final impedance but I was hoping for a 6ohm and up. SO we will see.
That will take some extra work to attenuate each section to the same level but should be doable! I had no issues getting my three way passive crossover right on my monkey coffins which are 8/8/4 ohms and all different sensitivities. Just be sure and triple verify your levels and attenuations. Worst case scenario, any error will show up in your final measurements and you can fix them after.
 

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I probably wont have any issues out of the ordinary(will struggle with a 1 off crossover) but I am wondering how the impedance will look?

I know my AVR states 6ohm and above so we will see how it likes 4ohm loads.
 

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So as I tried to get some stuff done today I just ended up not getting much accomplished. :(

Turns out that the 3.3" drivers have a tiny lip for mounting.


SO I tried to make my guestimate cutout work but had no such luck. I am waiting on another circle template anyways so I will have to wait. I need to cutout a 77mm circle and that is proving to be a tad difficult with the jig saw. I am so used to doing subwoofers that it is all a bit strange to me when the magnet is the same size as the mounting frame. Well almost.

So not much progress done today. I did put in a few posts for the wifes garden. :D
 

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SO just realized I had not posted anything. I am still waiting on a circle jig and a few other parts.

I received my Celestion 8's in the mail the other day and had a look at all of them to make sure they made the trip from Germany. Long story short one of them did not and the damaged woofer had a bent frame also. So I called customer service about getting a replacement and they said they will just refund my money because they dont have any in stock. :(

BUT I still need another 8 to go with the other one. So I am going to have to wait another few weeks until they have some in stock. Then I have to pay the high shipping rate again.:rolleyes:

Its been one thing after another lately and All just to save some money.
 
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