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Cream&Sugar™ - an N9 reflective screen mix.

80620 Views 298 Replies 40 Participants Last post by  Harpmaker
This thread will be maintained for those that already have a C&S screen and wish to discuss it, and for historical reasons. These formulae will not work with the current Craft Smart silver paint sold by Michael's. Those wishing to built a new C&S™ screen should read the thread on the mix that replaces C&S™,
Cream&Sugar™ Ultra.

I must sadly report that Michael's has changed the formulation of their Craft Smart silver paint and it will no longer work well to make Cream&Sugar™ with. Expect a new C&S™ formula soon; until then continue using the old silver paint where available, see this post for details.

Hi folks!

There seems to be a lot of interest in lighter reflective DIY screen paints. Even though I am really going in the opposite direction in search of a really good dark reflective screen paint, I decided to see if the reflective ingredient I was using could also be used for a very light screen.

The data and photos below should be enough to give you a good idea of what the mix I call "Cream&Sugar" will do. They aren't appealing "screenies", but they tell the story, at least most of it. ;)

I call this mix Cream&Sugar because it isn't white, but an off-white kind of like cream, and the sparkle in the mix is the sugar. As will be shown later, the mix is neutral, but just barely. :sweat:

Addendum: During the course of this thread I developed three different Cream&Sugar mixes and designated them C&S #1, C&S #2 and C&S #3. The formula given below is now called C&S #1.

All 3 mixes give essentially the same result, they just use different bases or paint colors to achieve the same result.

New addendum: I've added the formulae for C&S #2 and C&S #3 to this post so all mix ingredient info is in one place. To not leave holes in the flow of the thread I've left the original posts (along with their Spectral Reflectance Charts) in their original place in the thread.

C&S #1 (special note: As of October 2009 Sherwin-Williams is discontinuing Luminous White in many of there paints, if you are having trouble finding LW please try either C&S #2 or C&S #3)
[Another special note: as of December 2010 it seems that Luminous White is still available in some areas, but it might have to be special ordered from your store]
First, the ingredients; the "cream" is Sherwin-Williams Luminous White flat interior latex and the "sugar" is Craft Smart Metallic Silver. These are mixed in a 2:1 ratio; 2 parts LW (Luminous White) to 1 part CSMS (Craft Smart Metallic Silver). The LW is available from Sherwin-Williams stores and the CSMS is available from Michael's arts & crafts stores; and only Michael's. In the post following this one I will describe how those not having access to the above ingredients can possibly substitute their own locally available materials.

The CSMS is a reflective ingredient that I am using to make an N7 mix that is showing great promise, but that's for another thread. :cunning: I should also add here that while I don't know what material is used to make the CSMS sparkle, it doesn't show a prismatic effect like all of the mica-based silver paints I have tried do. No rainbows from CSMS, even when used full strength. In this regard, it acts a lot like aluminum flakes, but it isn't near as "darkening" when added to a mix.

CSMS is also inexpensive; it's $1 for 4 ounces, $2 for 8 ounces and $4 for 16 ounces. That puts it at $8 per quart, which is cheaper than most house paints. :T

The mix is:
One quart Sherwin-Williams Luminous White flat interior latex (this is a base color, not a tint). Not all SW paints are available in this base color.
One 16 oz. bottle Craft Smart Metallic Silver

It is my hope that others will continue with adaptations to this original mix using different white paints and seeing how they work out. I strongly suggest not deviating from the use of the CSMS, unless absolutely necessary, since that could really throw off the color and reflectiveness of the mix.

The first photo is of a bottle of CSMS so you know what to look for at Michael's.

Now some microscope pics for those that care about such things. :bigsmile: As with most microscope shots, the color is not correct.
C&S at 60x

C&S at 200x (this pic displays an area about 1/32 inch wide)

A Spectral Chart of Cream&Sugar. Note that the fancy name isn't used in the chart. This mix has not been color-corrected to make it neutral, it is a simple two-part mix. Of special note is that the L* value in the top-left of the chart is 90.31, this equates to a Munsell Gray of N9; a pure white would be 100 or N10. The a* and b* values are under 1.0 (+ or - doesn't matter) so the mix is considered neutral.

Since C&S will be compared to a Kilz2 panel, I have included a Spectral Chart of my batch of Kliz2 as well. you can see that Kilz2 is brighter than C&S with a L* value of 92.29, the other values show my batch of Kilz2 wasn't neutral (but close enough for gov'ment work :)).

Now some panel photos.

The panels are, from left to right, Kilz2, C&S, Black Widow BB/AAA 4:1 and BW WM/HE558 5:1. Only the left two panels are of true interest to us in this thead. I used the BW panels to hide most of the wall :heehee: which can still be seen in place of a 5th panel. I placed an "X" there with masking tape, kindly ignore this "panel". :whistling:

Panels under room light with camera auto-white-balancing.

Panels under projector light using a 100% white image, head on.

Color Bars, head on.

White image at 45 degrees.

Color Bars at 45 degrees.

Color Bars at about 170 degrees. Sorry, I was in a hurry and forgot to take a white image at this angle. :doh:

While I don't have the photos to prove it, the C&S panel had slightly deeper blacks than the Kilz2 panel. Of course, they were much lighter than the BW panels, but we're not counting those this time. :) I didn't have the disk that contained the gray-scale photo I use, so I had to make do with what I had. :huh:

All-in-all, I think that C&S has similar whites to the Kilz2 panel while being a slightly darker panel. Also, the C&S was more neutral, which does make a difference if you can't adjust your PJ's R, G and B channels independently (I can't).
Since people were not finding Sherwin-Williams Luminous White in quart sizes I decided to try to find C&S mixes that did to keep costs down. The following two mixes will also give good results and will be cheaper since you don't have to buy a $30+ gallon of white paint.

The first of the two is a more complicated mix than I wanted to use for C&S, but I'll list it since it is the most neutral mix I have tested so far and the paints, except the white paint, should be in the same area at Michael's since they are the same brand. It goes against my stated "3 paints or less" rule for C&S, but...

The down-side to this mix is it is a bit darker than N9 coming in at N8.8 for my sample chit. The up-side is it is the most neutral C&S mix yet.

You will need 4 different paints to make C&S#2.
One quart Behr UPW #1850 (acording to my spectro, Valspar Ultra Premium Enamel flat should work as well). Use the standard ultra-white base not a numbered base.
One 8 oz. bottle Craft Smart Metallic Silver
One 4 oz. bottle Craft Smart Metallic Gold
One 4 oz. bottle Craft Smart Metallic Bronze

The Gold and Bronze paints are needed to color-correct the mix. The neat thing is that ALL paints added to the white base are metallic so they all help make the mix reflective. The ratio of white paint to metallic paint is still 2:1 as in C&S #1.

The ratio of paint is:
UPW 8 parts
CSMS (silver) 2 parts
CSMG (gold) 1 part
CSMB (bronze) 1 part

Empty the paint into a large container and stir until blended. A squirrel-cage stirring attachment for a hand-drill is highly recommended as is washing the bottles of CSMS out with distilled water to get all the paint out - add the water to the mix.

I know this looks complicated, but it isn't. The key is that NO ingredient needs to be measured. It isn't hard to find the paints either since the white paint is simply a quart off the shelf that doesn't need to be tinted, and all 3 of the metallic paints should be close together at Michael's.

This mix is based on a custom-color paint from True Value hardware stores called "Refinement". The same ratio is used as in C&S #1, but the Luminous White is replaced with the "Refinement".

One quart True Value Trucolor "Refinement"
One 16 oz. bottle of Craft Smart Metallic Silver.

It turns out that some people don't have a True Value store near them (I'm not even sure they are in Canada at all) so I developed a matching paint that can be gotten at Lowe's. In time I will put another tint formula here for Behr #1850.
An alternate base paint to use to make C&S #3 is Valspar Ultra Premium Enamel flat tinted with the following formula:
Using Base 1
107 0.5
116 0.5
113 24

Add 16 fl. oz. of Craft Smart metallic Silver to a quart of this paint.

I finally had success matching the base for C&S #3 at Home Depot using Behr #1850.
The tint formula for the C&S #3 base at Home Depot is:
1 quart of Behr #1850 paint (ultra white base, which is what the 1850 means as well as the paint type)
[B]Tint   oz.   384th oz.
C        0       4
F        0       1[/B]
Add 16 fl. oz. of Craft Smart metallic Silver to a quart of this paint.
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Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

For those in other countries that don't have access to Craft Smart Metallic Silver. This post is for you! :bigsmile:

While it has been proven that the particular paint used as the base for a reflective mix does matter, I am in hopes that most flat white paints can be substituted for the Sherwin-Williams Luminous White I used. Time will tell.

Substituting another metallic silver paint for CSMS will be more difficult, but I hope not impossible. I would suggest going to your local arts and crafts store and purchasing a small bottle of every water-based metallic silver paint you can find. Put a drop or two of each of these on some white cardboard and spread them around a bit (I find that blowing on the paint is better than smearing it with a finger) being sure to label them so you know what's what; when the samples are dry, look at them under a bright light at an angle such that you see the reflectiveness of the silver particles. Look for any prismatic effect where the sparkles are all the colors of the rainbow. This effect is undesirable. If you can't find a paint that doesn't have this prismatic effect, well... you gotta do what you gotta do. Try one anyway and see what happens.

If you have to use a silver paint other than CSMS you will have to experiment with the amount used. Start adding drops of the substitute silver paint into an ounce (or half ounce) of whatever white paint you are using until you reach the shade of gray you are after. Make a sample of this mix and see what it looks like dry and under a bright light. You should be able to see the sparkles in the mix.

If you find a mix that works for you please be sure to post it on the forum!

Good Luck!
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Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

That's very interesting Harp...
I find it quite incredible that such a high concentration of silver added to the white, can still appear quite white, when compared to the Kilz2..

I can barely distinguish between the two in the colour band test, except for a very slight darkening of some of the colours..and the whites look to be almost identical..

The other amazing thing is that the viewing cone doesn't appear to be reduced at all..
That is some amazing silver you have there..:unbelievable:
The relatively high ratio of 1 part CSMS to 2 parts LW, and the resulting mix being so light, should tell you that CSMS is NOT a direct replacement for AAA or HE558; not that you said it was Prof. In fact I found that to match the gray level of the BW BB/AAA 4:1 mix using LW and CSMS I had to reverse the order of the paints! 4 parts silver to 1 part white; that comes out to 80% of the mix being silver! At that concentration, the CSMS exhibited a glossy sheen as well, and hot-spotted; which is something the C&S mix does NOT do.

I'm not sure how much the LW is hiding the silver, but even though I currently have no personal interest in such a light mix I'm going to pick up some of the Valspar enamel paint that mech uses and make a C&S mix with it to see if more reflective flakes are visible.

There doesn't seem to be any viewing cone with C&S, but yet the reflective agent does seem to lighten it to around the Kilz2 white level.

If I had a low-lumen PJ, or was happy with a white screen but wanted more pop in my colors, I would give C&S a try.

I want to stress that even though C&S ISN'T a Black Widow mix, it does share the simplicity of those mixes. That isn't an accident. :bigsmile:

We do have several brands of Craft Silver down here and I have seen one of the brands with those foreign languages on the bottle..Whether that means anything or not, I don't know, but it could be possibly a similar type of silver..
If they're not overly expensive, I would get small bottles of them and see if they have any prismatic effect. Who knows, you might luck out!

Hmm...decisions..decisions!! :daydream::wits-end:
Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't mean to "push" C&S, but it could be the simpler solution for you; and even if it doesn't work out, the testing of your local silver paints would serve you well in your other screen paint endeavors. :T
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Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

I used a very similar paint mix here although my screen shots seem to be missing (must have something to do with the old screen shots program going bust on here) But am very happy the results. It was also a 2 to 1 mix.
Hi Tony!

To be honest, I forgot you did this; maybe my subconscious didn't. ;) I now remember reading your thread with interest. It would be great if you could re-post your photos. I can recommend photobucket.com as a hosting site, it's very intuitive and easy to use.

I want to be clear that I'm not proclaiming C&S to be some incredible new invention, it's just a simple mix of white and silver paints. What makes CSMS different than the other silver paints I have tried is it shows no prismatic effect.

Tony's results have piqued my curiosity. I think I'll make up some sample chits using several other silver paints and see what comes up. I won't be using the Behr SM since it is only available in quart containers at around $20 each; too rich for my blood just to experiment with.
Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

The white on the BW seems so grey in these shots. Is that because the PJ is calibrated for the white? How would the shots look if you calibrated for the BW?


PS Have you tried rolling your C&S?
Actually, the calibration on my PJ is almost non-existent, that is one reason screen neutrality is so important to me. That said, I guess you could say my PJ is "calibrated" (brightness and contrast) for gray screens. With the simple white and color bar images I used I don't think PJ calibration matters too much; but I could be wrong.

Mech's answer is spot-on. You can't compare white and gray screens side-by-side for performance. I almost didn't put the BW panels in the C&S shots, but I wanted to show how "white" C&S was compared to gray screens as well as a white panel (I also wanted to hide most of that wall :bigsmile:).

I see no reason C&S couldn't be rolled, but I have never done it. Paint rollers and I have a mutual understanding, I leave them alone and they leave me alone. :joke:
Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

Don - that was all tongue in cheek! If I were you I'd keep this one here!
I hear ya dude!

I might share C&S at LumenLab since that is the crowd a paint like this is designed for.

Again folks, the key thing about C&S is simplicity, availability of ingredients and ease of application. Also, it does seem to work fairly well. ;)
Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

Is this paint Sherwin-Williams Luminous White flat interior latex the one the you guys consider the "best white"?
I only used the SW LW because I have a lot of it and for no other reason.
I honestly doubt it is the "best" white paint to make a C&S mix because it does tend to hide things that are put in it. Just for grins I did a little test where I put silver glitter in LW, it was amazing to me that NONE of the glitter glittered! Every flake of glitter was as white as a snowflake. How the itty bitty flakes in CSMS are fighting their way to the surface is a mystery to me.

While I have yet to try it, I would think that the base mech used for BW BB/AAA (Valspar int. flat latex enamel) would work better. I just got some yesterday, but haven't done anything with it yet. Of course, I got a quart that is untinted.

This looks like a good mix. To be honest, I am chicken to start so "dark" with the BW. I may need to paint some panels with a basic grey and see it in person before venturing out. (Of course, I need to figure out how to float my screen... soon.)
ALWAYS make test panels before you paint your real screen.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but one of the advantages of C&S is that it is inexpensive, and easy to mix because the ingredients are easy to find. Simply add a 16 ounce bottle of CSMS to a quart of white paint, stir, and your done; with a financial outlay of around $14 plus tax.

Now that I think of it, my presented C&S formula isn't inexpensive because it used LW, which is only sold in gallons for around $30. Looks like I will have to test the Valspar enamel after all so I can show a truly inexpensive mix.
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Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

Harp...How predominant are these colour sparkles, if there's mica in the paint? Can you see them clearly?

I've just bought my first sample of Silver Metallic Acrylic Craft paint and applied some to a piece of white board..
Looking at it on an angle in the sunlight, I can't see any colour sparkles at all..just tiny little sparkles that you have to look really hard to see..

Does this mean that I've found a suitable one straight off!!?..Also in some lights, you can barely see the difference between the silver and the white card!!
It sounds like you may have hit the jackpot! :T

Yes, in direct sunlight, any prismatic refraction caused by mica particles should almost jump up and slap your eyeball. To me, the most prominent colors are magenta and green. It also helps to be about 8 inches or less away from the sample and have it tilted so that you are getting the maximum reflective brightness.

Please see my next post.
Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

When selecting a white paint to be used as the base for a C&S mix, look for one that is very "warm", meaning one that is high in the red/orange area of the spectrum. In fact, try to find one that is close to the RGB values of Sherwin-Williams Luminous White. It's RGB value is 247-246-240.

It turns out that I was wrong about LW, I thought it was just another "typical white paint", the fact is it is a very bright and warm white. I have mixed small samples of other white paints I have with the CSMS and the results are not as good as with the LW; the other whites tend to make mixes that push toward blue. It's only a subtle difference, but it's all about subtleties isn't it?

I'll post some Spectral Charts later to show what I mean.
Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

Hi Harp, Its sounding like you and I found a very easy screen to mix and paint. your results are very similar to what I have found I have been very happy with the results. By the way I reposted the pictures in my original thread here.
Yeah, the key word is EASY. Thanks for reposting your pics!

I think I may be on to a way for people to compensate for "regular" white paints making C&S too blue. It will mean adding one more color of paint in the mix, but that still makes it only 3 separate paints (White base, silver metallic and gold metallic). I have some sample chits drying and I'll post the results tomorrow.

In case anyone may be thinking "Where will it end? How many different paints are we going to need?", the answer is only 3 maximum. C&S was always meant to be a SIMPLE mix and it will remain so.

You and I should patent this design:bigsmile: Just kidding.
Oh man... don't even think about going there!:thud::joke:
Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

Here are some Spectral Reflectance Curve charts to show what changing base white paints does to the mix.

The vertical axis is the reflectance value in percent; 0 would be 100% black and 100 would be 100% white if all points on the horizontal axis were the same (a straight flat horizontal line). Everything in between 0 and 100 would be a gray. What makes colors is a non-flat horizontal line.

The horizontal axis is made up of 31 color points from 400 nanometers (the beginning of Ultraviolet) to 700 nanometers (the beginning of Infrared) in 10 nanometer increments.

The color scale at the bottom of the chart is an approximation of what color each point on the horizontal scale is.

The first is the Luminous White/CSMS 2:1 mix as given in post #1

Kilz2 used as the base

Behr UPW used as a base

Ace Hardware white as a base

OK, so what does all this stuff mean? Without going into a bunch of color theory (well, maybe a little :)) the important thing is the flatness of the horizontal line. While it's a bit bumpy, the horizontal line in the first chart (LW) is fairly flat; the blue end of the line at 430 nanometers (before it takes a nose-dive) is at about 78% and the red end at 400 nanometers (abbreviated "nm") is about 75%. This is why the mix is considered a neutral gray (read about L*a*b* values in post #1).

If we look at the Kilz2 based chart we see there is a greater difference between the ends of the horizontal line. The blue is about 71% and the red is about 62%. We have a sloping line, not a straight line. This means the blue portion of the reflected white light from the screen would be about 9% brighter than the red portion. We call this situation "pushing" blue. This amount of blue push could probably be compensated for by adjusting the RGB colors on the projector, but some PJ's (like mine :() don't compensate well, so we strive for as true a gray mix as possible.

Don't be too concerned with the L* values of the charts (other than the LW one), these readings were taken from small sample mixes and the 2:1 ratio could be a bit off which would affect this value the most.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I'm working on a way to compensate for the blue push of using the regular white house paints by adding some gold metallic paint to the mix. I'll let you know how it works out.
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Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

Interesting Harp! I would've thought that the UPW would have been a bit better than the Luminous White. :scratch: It is interesting to see how the different whites perform though. It would be nice to see the spectrum stabilize itself as well. Even the LW shows a variation of 5 and the RGB's are a bit off.
As far as I can tell, the "bumps" in the SC's (Spectral Charts) are coming from the white paints themselves. When I have time, I'll post some SC's in the "Spectrum Images" thread and give links to them in this thread.

If your open to suggestions, I'd recommend a touch of yellow and magenta. That should bring the green and blue down. I'd try to tackle it like the Bermuda Beige, mix up your base until it's right and then when it is dialed in you can get measurements and color match - if need be. Since you already have a bunch of metallic in the mix I'd leave the gold out.
I'm always open to suggestions! :bigsmile:
If I have to I'll take a shot at color-correcting C&S and then finding a custom-colored base like you did with Bermuda Beige for AAA, but I'm hoping I don't have to do that.

The gold metallic is replacing part of the silver metallic, it's not added to it. Yet... :bigsmile:

But what do I know! :neener:
Yeah, riigghhtt! :cunning::rolleyes::bigsmile:
Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

Anyways, I admire the data-based approach you're taking! Just wanted to chime in and let you know... :T
Thanks Jim, it's appreciated! :T
Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

Does anyone know what N value RS-MaxxMudd is?

MMan, I never pretended that I was breaking new ground with Cream&Sugar (other than the catchy name ;)). C&S will always remain a SIMPLE mix; easy to find, mix and apply (at least in North America). If improvements can later be made by adding more components, a new mix will be introduced (perhaps called Cream&Sugar Ultra or somesuch), but I'm trying not to go down that road.

The trick is getting a neutral gray reflective screen and maintaining a true N9 (which is bloody close to most white paints as they come out of the can!). Most "white" paints I have measured have come in at around N9.5. This leaves precious little room to add a reflective paint, let alone correct a mix by adding red or yellow pigments, since doing so will darken the mix.

I have tried, with some success, to add nothing but metallic colors to the white base to color-correct it. I have also seemingly had some success with finding a custom-color base that corrects the blue push of the CSMS in a similar fashion as BB does with AAA. BB does not work with CSMS.

More on these matters when the samples have time to not only dry, but cure a bit. I learned that lesson some time ago when I reported, luckily via PM, that I had found a VERY neutral BW mix that hadn't been tried before only to test it the next day and find that it had changed color drastically (this mix was never reported to the public).
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Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

I finally found some time this weekend to make this post, and my sample chits have cured so their measurements should be stable.

First, I want to state that the simplest way to make a good C&S mix is to use the Luminous White/CSMS mix from post #1, but the following two mixes will also give good results and may be a bit cheaper as you don't have to buy a $30 gallon of white paint.

The first of the two is a more complicated mix than I wanted to use for C&S, but I'll list it since it is the most neutral mix I have tested so far and the paints, except the white paint, should be in the same area at Michael's since they are the same brand. It goes against my stated "3 paints or less" rule for C&S, but... :huh:

The down-side to this mix is it is a bit darker than N9 coming in at N8.8 for my sample chit. The up-side is it is the most neutral C&S mix yet.

You will need 4 different paints to make C&S#2 (I guess that makes the original formula C&S#1).
Behr UPW #1050 [Behr #1850 is now recommended over #1050] (acording to my spectrophotometer, Valspar int. flat Ultra White enamel should work as well, perhaps better since it has a bit of sheen than UPW doesn't)
Craft Smart Metallic Silver
Craft Smart Metallic Gold
Craft Smart Metallic Bronze

The Gold and Bronze paints are needed to color-correct the mix. The neat thing is that ALL paints added to the white base are metallic so they all help make the mix reflective. The ratio of white paint to metallic paint is still 2:1.

The ratio of paint is:
UPW 8 parts
CSMS (silver) 2 parts
CSMG (gold) 1 part
CSMB (bronze) 1 part

This mix is based on a custom-color paint from True Value hardware stores called "Refinement".

I theorized what base paint color I wanted and went to EasyRGB.com and did a search; the closest match was a True Value TruColor paint. I wrote down the name and went to Lowe's to have it color-matched. The "paint guy" entered the name into the computer, but the computer told him to sell me a can of premixed Valspar white paint and then told him how much "off" it would be. The problem was that the color I was asking for was brighter than they could mix! We tried every paint brand Lowe's sells and the result was the same. I stopped at a True Value store on the way home and got a quart of the real stuff. I watched as they added the tints to the can of "pastel base"; they put in 1/96th of an ounce (the smallest their manual machines can measure) of two different colors and then put in 1/2 ounce of White! Even with all that added white pigment the mix was still way less bright than EasyRGB said it should be.

I was going to show a SC of "Refinement" alone, but I think that would be over-kill. :) One of the C&S mix based on it will be enough. First I'll show the page from EasyRGB for those that like to follow along. :)

Instead of the stated 246-241-233 my mix came in at 242-237-233, 4 points lower on the Red and Green values. It still gave a neutral result, but not as neutral as I would have liked. It is N9 though, in fact, almost a N9.1. If I was going to try this again I think I would go with the "Marshmallow" color and have them put a bit more white pigment in than their formula calls for, just in case. :)

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Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

That's an awful lot of metallic in that one mix! One would more than likely need sunglasses! :sn:
Nope, the ratio of white to metallic is the same for all C&S mixes. :) The metallic gold and bronze are simply replacing 1/2 of the metallic silver, not being added to it.:nerd:

I don't think the first is more neutral at all by looking at the spectrum. The second one... brilliant! Plugging numbers the firs is closer by about 30 degrees but I think they both fall within the classification. Those 2 blue points could vary well be the store variance! ;)
I thought we were going by the L*a*b* values to determine neutrality. Am I doing it wrong? I know what you mean though about the spectral curve of C&S#2, I almost dubbed it "The Sine wave version". :joke:

Have you done sheen tests on this yet?!?!?!
Even thought you were asking in jest, I can see no sheen in the samples or the original test panel. When I make up future test panels I'll use the Valspar flat enamel because I think the smallest bit of sheen would be a good thing here. The paint guy at my local Lowe's seems very accommodating, I'll see if he can do a custom color for me from scratch and follow the formula for TV-Marshmallow.

Seriously though Harp, if you think this may be ready for prime time I think we need to add it to our N9 list.
The original C&S mix, LW/CSMS 2:1, is good to go. I still need to test the others under PJ light.

BTW, I made some sample chits using Delta Silver metallic just to see how they looked, and even in a 1:1 mix with LW (50% silver paint!) there were NO visible sparkles in the mix! :unbelievable:
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Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

Just a note to let any that are interested in the C&S mixes know that I have finished spraying test panels of the C&S#2 and C&S#3 mixes, and they are performing better than the sample chits! Both are extremely neutral, with the most improvement showing in the C&S#2 mix that had a very bumpy SRC in the sample.

I hope to get photos done later this week, but for now here are the Spectral Reflectance Curve charts for the full size test panels.


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Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

Photos shmotos! The spectrum tells me everything I need to know and it looks great!

Nice job Don!

:T :T
Thanks mech!

The True Value "Refinement" worked out better than I had hoped! My next step is to take the tint formula from the can to Lowe's and have it made using Valspar int. latex enamel. At that point I think I'm done for awhile with the super light gray paints.

BTW, the main, and perhaps only, difference between the Valspar int. latex enamel "Base 1" and "Ultra White" is the "Base 1" has one half ounce less paint in the can to leave room for tint! I'll be using all that space since the formula for "Refinement" is 1/2 ounce White + 1/96 ounce Yellow Oxide + 1/96 ounce Exterior Red for a quart.

I just got done spraying a RS-MaxxMudd-LL test panel using the formula MMan gave earlier in this thread. I'll test it with the spectro tomorrow.

One thing you can't tell from spectral charts is how the paint performs under PJ light (angular gain). I'll probably stick with the white and color bar images I used before, plus one of a gray scale. Screenies look nice, but really don't tell you much. Reference images are boring, but tell you a lot. :bigsmile:
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Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.


Looks good. Do you mind rolling your samples, too? I wonder how that effects the performance. (...and MMan, no, I am not getting a sprayer... ;) )
To tell you the truth, I'm just not a roller. However; I see absolutely no reason the C&S mixes shouldn't roll just fine. There simply aren't enough visible sparkles to cause rolling problems and they don't "leaf" like some aluminum does. I think if you can roll regular latex paint without leaving roller marks, you can roll C&S.

Of all the paints I've used as bases for C&S, the Valspar int. latex enamel has smoothed out the best when I made my sample chits. If I was rolling I would use that as the base. I will see about getting a quart of the stuff with the same tint formula as the True Value "Refinement" (yes, that is the name of the paint color :rolleyes:) and see if it works as well. I hope it does since it flattens out better than the TV paint and there are many more Lowe's stores than True Value stores. Also, if the tint formula works with the Valspar paint it should work with the Behr paints at Home Depot.
Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

Oh boy! Some magnifications would be nice as well. But I'm pretty certain I know how those will look!
I haven't done them yet, but I would expect it will look very similar to Silver Fire.

I'll say this though, if this version of RS-MaxxMudd doesn't hot-spot (and I'm NOT saying it does), we have a lot more room to add sheen to our mixes than I thought. Also, the version I made up is from a MMan post at AVS that post-dates his post in this thread and not the formula in this thread as I stated before. More about this after I test the panel.

Does it have a pretty sharp cone? With regards to reference images, I agree. Screenies are not an issue with a neutral mix in my opinion. If you want to show the viewing cone just throw up an white image or an 80% gray
Haven't seen it under PJ light yet. Will do so tonight or tomorrow.

Has the big orange store expanded their library then? I didn't think they could match a TV color.
I didn't try to match "Refinement" at HD, I don't get to that store very often; I pass a Lowe's at least once a week.

Lowe's CAN'T match Trucolor "Refinement" via their computer database (and I didn't try to match a sample). I told about that little adventure in a previous post. I just verified the tint colors used in the "Refinement" formula and gave that info to the paint dept. at Lowe's. The guy that knows what he is doing wasn't there today, and the woman there today didn't have a clue how to manually match a tint formula. Luckily, there was another guy there that knew one of their red tints was also called "Exterior Red" and he made up the quart. I have yet to test it, but if it is a close match to the TV "Refinement", I'll have the Lowe's numerical formula, plus the TV formula; so I'm assuming HD could built a quart from one of those. I dislike having True Value paint as a base since they are not nationwide (not sure about that though); but they are not as big as Lowe's and Home Depot combined. ;) Also, TV doesn't have a latex enamel.

I bet someone has a 'custom tint' all set up for you on this though!
Yeah, ME! No outside help. :bigsmile:
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