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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

Seems like Harpmaker is the man of action lately with C&S Ultra. I'll follow some other posters in saying that I'm new to screen painting. I built a screen back in January that worked great, but I just moved into a house with more room and am ready to expand.

I started off researching black widow when someone mentioned having a large screen and mech or someone as knowledable said to check out the Cream&Sugar mix which lead straight to here. I greatly appreciate all the knowledge flowing through this thread and hope that Harpmaker or mech or someone can point me in the correct direction if I'm way out of bounds. Here's some specs that I've already got:

I have an Optoma TX1080 with specs and measurements from ProjectorCentral
1920x1080 resolution, 3600 ANSI lumens, 2200:1 contrast
113/12 = 9.42 ft
63/12 = 5.25 ft
9.42*5.25 = 49.455 sq/ft

My room is painted Red with a white ceiling and moderate light. This is a pretty bright projector and light doesnt seem to effect it too much. Its not technically a home theater projector but it looked better than all the other ones I saw in my few months of looking.

I have a 19'x11' room, which will give around 129" screen (113"x63"). I read the BW would turn out too dark on a screen of this size and that C&S Ultra being N9.2 would be much more beneficial for me. Would you recommend sanding the area that the screen will go on before?

I believe I have access to both HD's Behr #1850 as well as Lowes Valspar Ultra Premium White Flat Latex Enamel (base 1). And Liquitex BASICS 'Silver' I can get at Michaels or order off Amazon.

My big question is about the mixing and how much I need and the process. So tell me if I have the process correct from start to finish:

Sand the wall, use 2 coats of Kilz Premium Primer from HD, 2 layers of a mix of 1 quart Valspar, 16 fl oz LBS. Thin it out with 8oz of distilled water or 25% of 32oz paint + 8oz distilled. That's where I'm a bit confused.
Past that it would just be rolling it on and making sure there were no lines and when going over it again only do down strokes with the roller. Dont use a latex/foam roller. When painting put the connected side on the direction you're going so it will feather out and cause less lines.

What kind of roller do you recommend?
Would the 1 quart Valspar/Behr + 16oz LBS be enough to cover the square footage?

I dont know how well my research has done for me, but I hope I'm grasping the concept.
I appreciate any and all help!
 

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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Hi Tobz, welcome to the forum! :wave:

I'm not sure who told you Black Widow™ was too dark for you, but they either didn't understand your HT setup or were just wrong. With your PJ and screen size (130" diag.) you are producing an image brightness somewhere around 32 fL; the amount recommended for "normal viewing" is 16 fL. Even with an aging PJ lamp you should have enough image brightness for a BW™ screen.

You said that you built a screen before and liked it - what was it (size and color)? This will help us determine if you prefer image brightness over rich colors and high contrast (those are the two basic screen image preferences - neither is right or wrong, they are simply preferences).

Right off the bat I would think that C&S™ Ultra would be too bright for you and lack the contrast improvement you probably need with your PJ (I too am using a "presentation" grade PJ and it needs all the help it can get in that department).

As for how much paint to put on a screen, I prefer to err on the side of plenty and like to figure on 1 fluid ounce of paint per square foot of screen. Many people end up using half that, but I would rather have too much than too little. The average user puts on two coats of screen mix, some have used only one and a few have needed three - it all depends on the skill (and luck) of the painter. My 1 oz. per sq.ft. recommendation is for 2 coats when rolling or about 4 coats when spraying.

With your amount of image brightness there is a good chance you won't need to use one of our reflectively enhanced screen mixes, but could simply use an OTS (off-the-shelf) neutral gray paint in an eggshell finish.

As far as screen substrate smoothness goes, the most important thing is that it all be the SAME TEXTURE. It does not need to be "baby bottom smooth". A bit of common sense comes into play here, if you can see texture in the wall from your normal viewing distance you will be able to see it when watching movies as well. Plain old smooth drywall will work fine. It's a good idea to shine a bright light on the wall at a low angle and look for any shadows that might be visible due to rough areas or nail heads. Fix any irregularities you find.

While I don't think C&S™ Ultra will be the mix we recommend for you I will address your questions about it. Either you read through the first post a little too quickly or I just didn't explain clear enough (I've highlighted this area in red now). C&S™ Ultra is a 1:1 ratio mix which means it is 50% base paint and 50% Liquitex BASICS Silver paint. For the "normal" amount of mix you would use ALL of the Silver, but only HALF of the base paint to make 32 fl. oz. of mix total. Sorry for any confusion about that. Also, the base paint (either Valspar or Behr) MUST be tinted to make a neutral gray mix.

I personally don't roll (note that my avatar is a spray gun), but I would use the best quality roller cover you can find. Use a 1/4" nap roller (even shorter if you can find one).
 

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Discussion Starter #3
My screen was just a solid wood frame and black out material on top. It was a slight gray tint. No painting. It just looked like a real screen at 90".

I'd be OK with using a normal paint if that would be better. No one told me not to use bw. Another poster had a similar screen size, but I guess mine is much brighter. But I'd rather have rich colors. I can lower the brightness to get more life from the bulb.

I understand the paint mix, my problem was more how much water to thin it out.

If you do recommend that my needs are met with a off the shelf paint, do you have a suggestion for the best? I still have the mixing formula for bw, but s&c seems much easier. Thanks for the help so far. Guiding me to the light.
 

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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

My screen was just a solid wood frame and black out material on top. It was a slight gray tint. No painting. It just looked like a real screen at 90".
The only BOC I ever tested was from Jo-Ann Fabrics and it measured a quite neutral N9. BOC makes a much better screen than some people on other forums give it credit for.

I'd be OK with using a normal paint if that would be better. No one told me not to use bw. Another poster had a similar screen size, but I guess mine is much brighter. But I'd rather have rich colors. I can lower the brightness to get more life from the bulb.
Yeah, your PJ has lumens to spare, which isn't the normal case in home theaters. I forgot to ask how far you will be sitting from the screen. If you are closer than about 12 feet I would recommend an N7.8 OTS gray; past that point I would recommend BW™. BW™ is an N7.5 paint that acts like an N8 under projection, that means you get the ambient light absorption of a N7.5 gray screen yet the brilliance of an N8 gray. The reason is the billions of near-microscopic aluminum "mirrors" in the mix and the directionality of the projected beam. The reason for recommending an OTS paint for closer viewing is that a few people have mentioned that they saw some graininess in their image using BW™- that was traced back to having a very bright image (over 25 fL IIRC) and setting close to the screen (10' in both instances IIRC).

I understand the paint mix, my problem was more how much water to thin it out.
Sorry I misunderstood stood you. C&S™ Ultra has to be thinned before using even if rolling because of the thickness of the BASICS Silver. The minimum amount of water I would add to 32 oz. of C&S™ Ultra would be 8 oz. which is 25%. I would use the resulting 40 oz. figure when calculating how much paint to cover a screen.

If you do recommend that my needs are met with a off the shelf paint, do you have a suggestion for the best? I still have the mixing formula for bw, but s&c seems much easier. Thanks for the help so far. Guiding me to the light.
With your situation an OTS gray paint would serve you very well. I would recommend Valspar Ultra Premium interior latex in eggshell finish tinted to match Glidden Master Palate 'Veil', this comes in at N7.8 on the Munsell Gray Scale. If for any reason you want to buy your paint at Home Depot instead of Lowe's you will have to get this color ('Veil') in Glidden instead of Behr (my HD store would not mix a Glidden color into a Behr paint since they also sell the Glidden paint). If that is the case DON'T get the Glidden paint in eggshell, it has too much gloss, get it in flat finish.

For maximum performance as a screen I would recommend you use Black Widow™, but the simpler OTS gray would be almost as good and be less expensive and easier to get at the same time.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

The only BOC I ever tested was from Jo-Ann Fabrics and it measured a quite neutral N9. BOC makes a much better screen than some people on other forums give it credit for.
I can verify that this is what I got. Jo-Ann Fabrics is where I got mine and I can say that the colors popped with deep clear colors. Absolutely no complaints and it looked the same as a 85" manufactured screen I had with my prior projector. I believe their fabric can only go to a height of 54", which is why I'm not building another screen. And painting seems really cool. The worst that can happen is that I repaint the wall red and move the projector up to fit 90".


Yeah, your PJ has lumens to spare, which isn't the normal case in home theaters. I forgot to ask how far you will be sitting from the screen.
Typically I will be about 15' back, but when people come over, some will be sitting closer at staggered range. But it will not go any closer than 10'.

If you are closer than about 12 feet I would recommend an N7.8 OTS gray; past that point I would recommend BW™. BW™ is an N7.5 paint that acts like an N8 under projection, that means you get the ambient light absorption of a N7.5 gray screen yet the brilliance of an N8 gray. The reason is the billions of near-microscopic aluminum "mirrors" in the mix and the directionality of the projected beam. The reason for recommending an OTS paint for closer viewing is that a few people have mentioned that they saw some graininess in their image using BW™- that was traced back to having a very bright image (over 25 fL IIRC) and setting close to the screen (10' in both instances IIRC).
I searched the HTS forum for a dedicated BW thread and found one from 2008 that you also posted in. So I hope you dont mind me posting some here to verify. Here's what I have for that and you can definitely correct my mistakes

The preferred base paints are Valspar Ultra Premium Enamel Flat or Behr #1850 tinted to match PPG-Bermuda Beige 427-2. (...that is a specific "Tint" code specified by "Pittsburgh Paints" )

While "PPG Bermuda Beige" should be in Home Depot's paint computer, the tinting formula for a quart of Behr #1850 is:
F - Red Oxide 0-1-1
C - Yellow Oxide 0-2-1
B - Lamp Black 0-1-0

Simply mix US 16 ounces of Auto Air Aluminum (AAA, no 4101 fine) into 2 US quarts of tinted base paint and apply over a bright white primer. 3 coats. A local dealer here has only 12oz and it would take a week or two to get another 4oz tube unless I wanted to pay for freight. I think he said 4oz tube was $8 which is only 50 cents more than dickblick's pricing online. Unless you know of cheaper and if 12oz would be ok....but id rather go by the book if needed.
This doesnt seem to hard especially with those instructions to tell HD to create a proper mix.

I would recommend Valspar Ultra Premium interior latex in eggshell finish tinted to match Glidden Master Palate 'Veil', this comes in at N7.8 on the Munsell Gray Scale. If for any reason you want to buy your paint at Home Depot instead of Lowe's you will have to get this color ('Veil') in Glidden instead of Behr (my HD store would not mix a Glidden color into a Behr paint since they also sell the Glidden paint). If that is the case DON'T get the Glidden paint in eggshell, it has too much gloss, get it in flat finish.
On this I have some questions. Should that Valspar come in an eggshell finish off the shelf, or is it similar to with the BW mix of beige with valspar? And it is this one: Valspar Ultra Premium Gallon Interior Latex Semi-Gloss Base 1, right?
If I need to get it from HD it will be Glidden Master Palate 'Veil' flat, with no tinting?

I've got both Lowes and HD here, but there is a HD down the street. I will do what you feel is the most necessary for me. $30 OTS with no mixing or BW will be within probably $10-$20 of OTS.

If I do the BW i'd need 2 quarts and then 16oz. Is there anything special in mixing these?
If I do the OTS, will I need the full gallon?

I couldnt do this without you!
 

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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

I searched the HTS forum for a dedicated BW thread and found one from 2008 that you also posted in. So I hope you dont mind me posting some here to verify. Here's what I have for that and you can definitely correct my mistakes.
BW™ has a Presentation thread and a Discussion thread. Shortly after BW™ was introduced the metallic paint had to be changed in the formula, but it has remained the same now for about three years.

I may break these posts off and put them in their own thread, but I'll give you a heads-up before I do that so posting in this thread is fine for now. ;)

The preferred base paints are Valspar Ultra Premium Enamel Flat or Behr #1850 tinted to match PPG-Bermuda Beige 427-2. (...that is a specific "Tint" code specified by "Pittsburgh Paints" )
Correct.

While "PPG Bermuda Beige" should be in Home Depot's paint computer, the tinting formula for a quart of Behr #1850 is:
F - Red Oxide 0-1-1
C - Yellow Oxide 0-2-1
B - Lamp Black 0-1-0
That formula doesn't look quite right to me. If you could find the post you got it from and either post a link to it, or just mention what thread it's in and the post number, I would appreciate it.

The tint formula for a quart of Behr #1850 from the beginning of the BW™ threads is:

C - 0, 1, 1
F - 0, 1, 0
L - 0, 6, 1

Home Depot has changed the way they do tint formulae and the current "new" formula for that tint is:
C - 0, 12
F - 0, 8
L - 0, 52

L is the color Raw Umber.

Simply mix US 16 ounces of Auto Air Aluminum (AAA, no 4101 fine) into 2 US quarts of tinted base paint and apply over a bright white primer. 3 coats. A local dealer here has only 12oz and it would take a week or two to get another 4oz tube unless I wanted to pay for freight. I think he said 4oz tube was $8 which is only 50 cents more than dickblick's pricing online. Unless you know of cheaper and if 12oz would be ok....but id rather go by the book if needed.
Most people have only needed to roll on two coats of BW™. When the screen looks "even" after it has dried with no blotchyness you can stop.

12 oz. of AAA-F could be added to 1 1/2 quarts of base paint giving you 60oz. of BW™. That should be more than enough for your screen.

I don't know anyplace to get discounted AAA-F, but you could always try searching the internet for it and luck into a clearance sale.

This doesnt seem to hard especially with those instructions to tell HD to create a proper mix.
BW™ isn't difficult to mix at all. Unless you are mixing less than full batches (like you might be doing) there is no need to even measure the paints at all; simply pour the Bermuda Beige and AAA-F into a large bucket and stir until they are blended together and you see a uniform gray paint. The best way to stir paint is with a squirrel cage stirring attachment that is chucked into a cordless drill.

On this I have some questions. Should that Valspar come in an eggshell finish off the shelf, or is it similar to with the BW mix of beige with valspar?
The paint comes off the shelf in eggshell finish.

And it is this one: Valspar Ultra Premium Gallon Interior Latex Semi-Gloss Base 1, right?
Nope, that is a Semi-Gloss finish and is too shiny and will hot spot. Here is the gallon you want.

If I need to get it from HD it will be Glidden Master Palate 'Veil' flat, with no tinting?
That IS the tint. Glidden Master Palette (I misspelled this word before) is the "fan deck" the color is contained in and 'Veil' is the color itself. Yes, if you have to use Glidden paint get it in a flat finish.

I've got both Lowes and HD here, but there is a HD down the street. I will do what you feel is the most necessary for me. $30 OTS with no mixing or BW will be within probably $10-$20 of OTS.
If you go with BW™ then you can do fine using Behr #1850 as a base paint, but if you want to try the OTS 'Veil' paint I would recommend going with Valspar unless your Home Depot will mix the Glidden color in a Behr paint for you (mine won't).

If I do the BW i'd need 2 quarts and then 16oz. Is there anything special in mixing these?
If I do the OTS, will I need the full gallon?
Nope, no special mixing instruction other than to be sure the base and AAA-F are thoroughly mixed.

The coverage of both the BW™ and the OTS paint will be the same.

I couldnt do this without you!
Then perhaps you would be interested in my new book How to paint screens with your eyes closed. :unbelievable: Only Kidding! :bigsmile:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Its a post from AVSForum by Mississippiman post #1212 on the 41st page. I'm glad I got on this forum instead of trusting only one guy's post that seemed to argue with other people.

I'm glad you posted those other links. It seems that wbassett did a great job of updating the threads at the top. Not sure how I missed those after you said BW would be good for me. Its also
 

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Re: Cream&Sugar™ Ultra

Ahh, so that tint formula came from MM in the BW™ thread at AVS. That thread has been orphaned and is no longer updated (or read) by us. The thread starter (Mech) was banned there so it's impossible to maintain properly. In fact, Bill (Wbassett) has asked that it be deleted at AVS because it can't effectively be kept up-to-date (Bill and Mech developed BW™), but the-powers-that-be over there refuse to do so.

There is simply too great a difference between our scientific methods of mix development and their experiential ones. To this day, MM and PB don't have any objective proof of gain or color data for any of their mixes other than what we have provided for some of them on this forum. They measure everything "by eye" which simply isn't accurate enough for predictable results, I've tried (my first screen was painted with the Silver Fire mix being promoted at the time). :bigsmile:

Back to the Bermuda Beige tint formula. The paints used by different paint companies really are different so a tint formula for BB in Sherwin-Williams paint will be different than one for Pratt & Lambert. We have found that even within a single brand (like Behr) different people have gotten BB made only to find that their tint formulae were different. This is because different color tints can be used to make the SAME final color. Mech has proven that by measuring samples people have sent him with his spectrophotometer.

For best results I would recommend using info found here at HTS. :T And thanks for the link!
 

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Discussion Starter #11
LOL @ Maurice's bad information. I'm glad I continued to search and found you and harpmaker. Quality

So hopefully this will be the last post before I attempt the mix. Correct me where I'm wrong (as usual hah)

Tape off area
Sand all uneven areas and create a good surface (or buy plaster board or something smooth to hang)
2 layers of Kilzone Primer
2 layers of BW

BW Mix:
HD: 1.5 quarts of Behr #1850 with PPG-Bermuda Beige 427-2 Tint, with the new formulae
C - 0, 12
F - 0, 8
L - 0, 52

Lowes: 1.5 quarts of Valspar Ultra Premium Interior Flat Enamel Finish with PPG-Bermuda Beige 427-2 Tint

12oz of AAA-F

Mix thoroughly until looking uniform

Successs


This thread says for 100 square feet of coverage I can use 1 quart and 8oz of AAA-F. I thought I was under the 100sq ft for 3 coats on a 100" screen. Did I calculate wrong? I dont want to have way too much paint if possible. Or is it a 'better safe than sorry' measure to get a tad bit more?
 

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LOL @ Maurice's bad information. I'm glad I continued to search and found you and harpmaker. Quality
I'm glad you did too, I really have to wince when I see people get sucked into the hype and salesmanship of the mudd mixes like RS-MaxxMudd and Silver Fire (mudd is their name for them not mine) with absolutely no proof of performance other than a few screen photos which don't mean a thing (you can't tell if a screen is dark, light or D65 neutral from a photo if the camera is set on auto). I could say a lot more, but we really do try not to bash other forums or mix developers here - bad screen mixes are another story and it doesn't make any difference if they are DIY or commercial - they all get the same objective testing from us.

So hopefully this will be the last post before I attempt the mix. Correct me where I'm wrong (as usual hah)

Tape off area
Sand all uneven areas and create a good surface (or buy plaster board or something smooth to hang)
2 layers of Kilzone Primer
2 layers of BW

BW Mix:
HD: 1.5 quarts of Behr #1850 with PPG-Bermuda Beige 427-2 Tint, with the new formulae
C - 0, 12
F - 0, 8
L - 0, 52

Lowes: 1.5 quarts of Valspar Ultra Premium Interior Flat Enamel Finish with PPG-Bermuda Beige 427-2 Tint

12oz of AAA-F

Mix thoroughly until looking uniform

Successs
Sounds good! :T BTW, the tint formula for mech's gallon of BB is shown in the second photo of the BW™ thread. The store can easily convert that into the formula for quarts.

Be sure to use a 1/4" nap, or shorter, roller cover to minimize texture in your screen surface.

This thread says for 100 square feet of coverage I can use 1 quart and 8oz of AAA-F. I thought I was under the 100sq ft for 3 coats on a 100" screen. Did I calculate wrong? I dont want to have way too much paint if possible. Or is it a 'better safe than sorry' measure to get a tad bit more?
Most interior latex house paints list their coverage as being anywhere between 250 and 400 sq.ft. per gallon which breaks down to 62.5 to 100 sq.ft. per quart, but I think this is for a single coat so that makes it 31.25 to 50 sq.ft. per quart for 2 coats. You might squeak by with using 1 quart of BB base and 8 oz. of AAA-F, but I tend to err on the side of plenty. The good news is that if you want to try only making a single 40 oz. BW™ batch and run out of paint you can always mix up another batch. They are easy to make and there is nothing to measure. :D
 

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Is Kilz Premium the best to get? Or is there something cheaper? Is it important?
I personally like to use Kilz Premium since it covers and seals better (that's why it is a little bit more expensive). Many people have used the less expensive Kilz 2 with no problems as long as you have no stains or dark colors to cover over. There are even cheaper "latex PVA" primers meant for use on drywall that I've seen for less than $7 a gallon. I have used the PVA primer on tempered hardboard for painting 2'x4' test screens and it seems to work well, but I can't give it a general recommendation for all surfaces for general use since I don't really know the difference between it and other latex primers. To be safe I would use Kilz 2 to save $$$.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I got everything done. Mix went well. Looks a tad darker than I thought it would, but it wasnt dry yet. If for some reason there was a small part that had more metal in it, what is the best way to smooth it out? We painted yesterday, so I'm hoping the paint would still be good if we tried to sand down the spot a little and re-apply.

What do you think?
 

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I got everything done. Mix went well. Looks a tad darker than I thought it would, but it wasnt dry yet. If for some reason there was a small part that had more metal in it, what is the best way to smooth it out? We painted yesterday, so I'm hoping the paint would still be good if we tried to sand down the spot a little and re-apply.

What do you think?
It's very important for the base paint and the aluminum paint to be thoroughly mixed to provide an even distribution of aluminum in the mix. If you have an area where there appears to be too much metal flake then simply apply more mix to that area AFTER the coat of paint in question has dried. Our screen mixes have minimal transparency so the last coat to go on covers the previous coat. This is why 2 coats are all that are usually needed to make a screen.

You shouldn't have to sand the previous coat unless you have runs or sags that need to be flattened out. It you do have to sand an area of the screen wait at least 72 hours to do so. The paint not only has to be dry, but also hardened. If you sand a freshly painted area too soon you will get "pilling" where the paint that comes off will tend to stick between the grains of grit in the sand paper or sanding block and roll together forming little pill shaped balls. If this happens the sanding material is more or less tearing little bits of paint off the wall rather than shaving it off; this produces an uneven surface in the sanded paint and also uses up a lot more sanding material than if the paint has hardened and comes off as a powder.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The screen looks really good except for a small hotspot. How long does a mix last? There is still some paint left over, but I'm worried if I paint over that small spot that it will be bad. It's been a few weeks.

Otherwise the screen looks incredible.
 

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The screen looks really good except for a small hotspot. How long does a mix last? There is still some paint left over, but I'm worried if I paint over that small spot that it will be bad. It's been a few weeks.

Otherwise the screen looks incredible.
If you mixed the BW™ correctly (4 parts base paint to 1 part AAA-F) then I can't see how it could be hot spotting (an over-bright area of the screen that moves as you change your viewing angle). Could you post a photo of this occurring? Or do you mean you have an area of the screen that has too much sparkle? If you are having a few small areas where the aluminum flakes are providing too much reflection you could simply touch them up with an artists brush dipped in your remaining BW™.

After two weeks your screen should be pretty well stabilized and I wouldn't expect any visible changes to take place.

BW™ will keep just like regular latex house paint. It should be good for at least several years if kept in a sealed container stored in a dark place. Like regular latex paint, DON'T let it freeze.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I guess its not a hotspot. More of a strip that has too much AAA-F. I'll try and get a picture of it tonight.
 
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