Home Theater Forum and Systems banner

1 - 20 of 178 Posts

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
10-18-13 Addendum: The Valspar paints have changed (and some not for the better) so we are now suggesting that Valspar Signature be used instead of Valspar Ultra. The tint formula is the same. All mixing is the same.



--------------------------------------------

The change in physical makeup of the metallic silver paint used to make the previous Cream&Sugar™ mix means that particular mix (or series of 3 mixes actually) can no longer be recommended unless the old Craft Smart Metallic Silver is still available to you.

Introducing Cream&Sugar™ Ultra! Like the Cream&Sugar™ mix before it, Cream&Sugar™ Ultra is a binary mix (only two paints are used). Both paints are usually easily obtained locally throughout the U.S.; development is continuing in the use of a paint available from Home Depot as well which I'm sure will be glad news to our northern neighbors in Canada since there are precious few Lowe's stores there.

The base paint is Valspar Ultra Premium Interior Latex Flat Enamel Base 1 with the following tint and amount - 115-0.67 for a quart of paint.

Addendum:The Valspar Ultra Premium Flat Enamel paint has been renamed by Lowe's to Valspar Ultra Premium Super Flat Finish. The paint is the same, just a different name, so the existing tint formula will still work.

Note that the photo below is NOT the Base 1 paint, but rather the Ultra White base.




For those coming from looking at the original Cream&Sugar™ thread please note that the ratio of base paint to silver paint has changed for Cream&Sugar™ Ultra, it is now 50% base paint and 50% silver paint (a 1:1 ratio).


To make 32 fl. oz. of mix (before thinning for final application) buy the following items:
1 quart Valspar Ultra Premium Super Flat Finish Base 1 tinted 115-0.67 (available at Lowe's)
16 fl. oz. Liquitex BASICS 'Silver' acrylic paint (four 4 oz. tubes or two 8 oz. tubs). This paint is available at most arts and crafts stores such as Michael's and A.C. Moore. It is also available at great discount from many stores on the internet.

Now the tricky part. Since the mix is 1:1 that means only 16 oz. of the quart of Valspar paint is used, to which is mixed the 16 oz. of LBS (Liquitex BASICS 'Silver'). While you could just add 32 oz. of LBS to the quart of Valspar paint, LBS is a fairly expensive paint and it would make way more mix than most people would need. So yeah, the tricky part is measuring 16 fl. oz. out of a quart of paint. :D

Because the LBS is so thick the mix DOES NEED TO BE THINNED, even to roll. For those rolling I would recommend adding at least 25% distilled water; those spraying would have to dilute even more depending on their sprayer. Add the water and mix thoroughly, this mix is slow to accept the added water. Mixing thoroughly is VERY important!

For what I will assume would be the standard C&S™ Ultra mix of 16 oz. Valspar and 16 oz. LBS that means an additional 8 oz. of water should be added to thin for rolling. It would be a good idea to also use some of this water to wash out your containers of LBS to get all the paint out. If you are using the 8 oz. tubs of LBS simply pour the water into the tub, cover and shake. If using 4 oz. tubes of LBS I found it works best to inject the water into the almost empty tube with some kind of syringe, close the lid and shake WELL.

Cream&Sugar™ Ultra is a N9.2 screen mix which is brighter than the N9 of the previous Cream&Sugar™ mix. This means C&S™ Ultra will not perform quite as well in ambient light as C&S™, but it also means the mix will be even brighter than C&S™ in a home theater that has controlled lighting and dark walls.

Data and photos to follow.
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
C&S™ Ultra



RGB 226 226 226
LAB 89.9 -0.11 -0.09
xyY 0.312 0.329 76.01

I've also got a panel that was done using Valspar Ultra Premium Flat as a base. Here's the chart for it:



RGB 223 222 222
LAB 88.6 0.17 0.22
xyY 0.313 0.329 73.29
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Here are some photos of C&S Ultra compared to Sherwin-Williams 'Extra White' paints in satin finish. This composite screen consists of four 1'x4' panels. They are displayed on the wall where I painted them. These aren't "eye candy" shots, but are rather to help demonstrate how these screens actually compare to each other.

The projector used is a Viewsonic PJ503D which is a presentation PJ that has had some firmware tweeks done on it so they could call it a home theater PJ. It isn't. The brightness/contrast/color adjustments on this PJ are about like you would find on an inexpensive 20 year old CRT TV set.

Left to right, the panels in the photos are:
  • C&S™ Ultra made with Valspar Ultra Premium white tinted to produce a neutral C&S™ screen
  • C&S™ Ultra made with Valspar Ultra Premium Enamel ultra white tinted to produce a neutral C&S™ screen (this is the official C&S™ Ultra mix)
  • Sherwin-Williams ProClassic interior acrylic latex 'Extra White' B20 W 51 in satin finish
  • Sherwin-Williams Color to Go (their cheap sample paint) 'Extra White' A91 W 251 in satin finish
All panels were sprayed using an air compressor/HVLP gun combo.

Panels in room light (ceiling mounted fluorescent). You can see the C&S™ Ultra panels are slightly darker than the 'Extra White' panels.



100% White field on-axis. To my eyes, the 2nd panel is brighter than the 3rd panel by a very small margin. The brightest panel is #4 (the cheap Color to Go sample paint $5 a quart).



100% White field ~70° (0° is on-axis). This is about the greatest angle that I would call viewable in a home theater, any greater angle creates too much angular distortion in the image. At this angle the C&S™ panels are darker than the white panels, but not by much. There is no hot spotting from any panel.



Color bars on-axis.


Color bars ~70°.


I would say that of all the paints tested above the SW Color to Go 'Extra White' satin produces the brightest screen. Here are a few photos from the Digital Video Essentials DVD.

Earth. It's hard to tell the panels apart unless you really look close.



Space Shuttle on pad. The thing to look at here is the grass at the bottom of the photo. The 2nd and 4th panels are the brightest.



Ambient light flag. This photo was taken with about 500 watts of "cool white" fluorescent light bouncing around a small room with white walls and ceiling. It's not a watchable image by any stretch of the imagination, but it shows the ability of even a light gray screen (the C&S Ultra) to boost black levels and color saturation over a white screen. The projected image (100% white field) has a measured brightness of 27 fL, the room light at the screen was measured at 24 fL.

 

·
Banned
Joined
·
14,914 Posts
I'll get some charts up later tonight. The only one I have is of the flat. I'll also get some pictures of the 4 different panels that I have later this week. :T No guarantees though cause the kids are on spring break. :wits-end:

I'll try to plan on gain readings next week.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Hey Harp. Can I assume that I can't mix the old & new silver together to the new base? I have some of the old silver left but not for a full batch.

Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
I have a local shop that carries auto air aluminum fine. Can i use 16oz AAA insted of the liquitex basics silver ? Will it still be neutral and will the AAA be a better silver agent for the C&S Ultra mix.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
14,914 Posts
I have a local shop that carries auto air aluminum fine. Can i use 16oz AAA insted of the liquitex basics silver ? Will it still be neutral and will the AAA be a better silver agent for the C&S Ultra mix.
No. They both act completely different.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Momma always told me that no question is a dumb question :) , so I would also like to know if C&S Ultra be used to make scorpion N? Sreen paint mix ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Wow
The DIY investigations on this forum are amazing. Many posters are part time Scientists ! Would your formulation
be a good bet for a 2;35 to 1 screen in this size. 300 inch diagnol. 9feet 8inch by 276 iches. going to use vynl flooring & Behr Premium Plus white eggshell latex enamel as the primer. take pictures of the images on the primer.
Then later with your solution. How much paint will I need ? Thank you in advance for your time. Ought to go back to the photos which Testing disc are you using?
John:clap:
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Would your formulation be a good bet for a 2;35 to 1 screen in this size. 300 inch diagnol. 9feet 8inch by 276 iches.
Yes, but it should only be used instead of a white eggshell finish paint if you need the slight help C&S™ Ultra will give you when ambient light is present (although it is NOT a mix designed for use in ambient light). I would think that a white eggshell paint would have a bit more gain than C&S™ Ultra, but this hasn't been confirmed yet via testing.

going to use vynl flooring & Behr Premium Plus white eggshell latex enamel as the primer. take pictures of the images on the primer. Then later with your solution.
I understand the reasoning behind this choice, and it might work out OK for you, but you will be painting the REAR of the vinyl flooring instead of the front, and the rear is some kind of paper material (be sure the backing doesn't have any kind of embossing or rolled texture to aid in holding glue as that would make it unsuitable as a screen). I really would recommend priming the back of the flooring with a real primer to seal it so it will not absorb excessive amounts of the coats of paint to follow. Any inexpensive primer would work. You might actually benefit from using Kilz Premium latex primer; this is a very white primer that actually has a sheen to it (some have even said it exhibited mild hot spotting) which might give a very similar image as the eggshell paint.

How much paint will I need ? Thank you in advance for your time. Ought to go back to the photos which Testing disc are you using?
Your screen will have 222 1/3 square feet of surface. I like to plan on 1 fluid ounce total (all coats of paint added together) of paint per square foot of screen just to be safe, but this is far from a hard and fast rule. Most gallons of paint say they cover 250 to 400 square feet, but keep in mind this is only a single coat; most of the time you will have to apply two coats of paint (primer or finish paint) to get an even appearance.

You're welcome. :T

I use the standard definition version of the Digital Video Essentials calibration DVD for the 100% White Field and Color Bar images as well as the space shuttle, planet Earth and flag images. My favorite DVD for taking "screenies" (screen photos) is The Fifth Element.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
New to the Forum, you guys are geniuses. I simply want to know/confirm that you can make the Elektra mix using the new C&S ultra right? Also I have a 100% light controlled environment and will likely be using a high lumen output projector I would say 1500+, I definitely want to have dark blacks, should I add the 2oz. of N6 ?
Thank you a million times over.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
New to the Forum, you guys are geniuses. I simply want to know/confirm that you can make the Elektra mix using the new C&S ultra right? Also I have a 100% light controlled environment and will likely be using a high lumen output projector I would say 1500+, I definitely want to have dark blacks, should I add the 2oz. of N6 ?
Thank you a million times over.
Let me add that the projector I am looking at is the Panasonic PT-AE4000U (1600 Lumens)
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
New to the Forum, you guys are geniuses. I simply want to know/confirm that you can make the Elektra mix using the new C&S ultra right? Also I have a 100% light controlled environment and will likely be using a high lumen output projector I would say 1500+, I definitely want to have dark blacks, should I add the 2oz. of N6 ?
Thank you a million times over.

Let me add that the projector I am looking at is the Panasonic PT-AE4000U (1600 Lumens)
Hi Centurion, welcome to the forum! :wave:

Thank you for the compliments. DIY screens, and screens in general, are a hobby for us; but it's one we do take seriously.

To answer your question, yes the Elektra™ mixes can be made using C&S™ Ultra as a base instead of the old C&S™.

As to how dark a screen you need, we will need a bit more info to help with that.

1. What size screen are you making?
2. Are the walls and ceiling painted white or a very light color, or are they dark?
3. How far will the PJ be mounted from the screen?
4. What will the viewing distance be from the screen?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Thanks for getting back to me. Here is the additional information:

1) the screen will be approximately 110" Diagonal, 16:9 format
2)Ceilings are Black Walls are a dark brown color.
3) The projector will be mounted about 14.5' from the screen
4) the first viewing row is about 11' from the screen

Thanks again, I'm already excited!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Harp,
I figured I might as well give a few more specifics about my room. All paint is flat, so no reflection. Floors are dark as well, and absolutely no ambient light (basement). The seating is in direct line with the screen, so there should be no concerns with the viewing angle. By the way the projector being mounted at 14.5' from the screen is about as far back as I can mount it, plus or minus maybe 6".
When I saw the thread of the Elektra™ screen, more specifically the Batman opening scene with the buildings, the blacks looked amazing! so deep, that is what I am going for.
 

·
Moderator Emeritus
Joined
·
3,772 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Thanks for the additional info Centurion. If you want deep blacks in the projected image the best way to do that is to buy a PJ that already has them and then build a dedicated theater to keep the screen protected from light pollution (which it seems you have done :clap:).

I'm thinking that you really don't need much help getting good contrast and black levels if you go with the Panny AE4000 or an Epson 8700UB in a dedicated theater with dark surfaces. Either use a white paint for your screen, or if you want to have a little bit of "black level insurance" you could go with C&S™ Ultra. If your heart is set on something a bit darker, the Elektra™ mixes can be made with C&S™ Ultra, but I would use the Behr N6 sample rather than the Valspar N6 sample paint because the Valspar sample is only available in satin finish which might make C&S™ Ultra hot spot a bit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
395 Posts
Harp, a quick question. We have discussed this on the development thread already but I was wondering if you have gotten around to formulating the C&S Ultra with paint one could get at Home Depot. My situation is almost identical to Centurian's and so your comment about the valspar paint maybe hotspotting got me thinking. Or is that only in regards to the darker mix( Electra)?
 
1 - 20 of 178 Posts
Top