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Discussion Starter #101
The base is:

Code:
[B]C&S™ #3 base. 
1 quart of Behr #1850 [/B]
Tint oz. 384th oz. 
C     0        4 
F     0         1
The N6 is:
Code:
[B]The N6 tint formula[/B] for Behr is: 
[B]For 1 quart[/B] 
Base = [B]Behr #1854[/B]
Tint: oz. 348 oz. 
B -     1     6 
C -     0    79  
F -     0    22
Thats because i was trying to do this: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-screen-development-testing/23090-hts-x2-experimental-n8-reflective-screen-mix.html
Thank you very much for the formula and link. That is the base I thought you had, but I wanted to be sure. This base is colored so it neutralizes the old Craft Smart Metallic Silver and it will not make a neutral mix if Liquitex BASICS 'Silver' is used instead - such a mix would be "warm" (push reds and oranges).

To make an equivalent of an Elektra™ mix (which is what you are doing), I would recommend making C&S™ Ultra and then darkening it with the N6 paint. I believe the C&S™ Ultra base tint formula to use with Behr paint is V - 5/384 oz., although it seems that Behr may have changed the names of their tints so it could be something other than V which is or was their symbol for the tint color Magenta. The base color you want for making C&S™ Ultra using Behr paint is 5/384 oz. of Magenta tint added to a QUART of #1850 (or equivalent).
 

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Thank you very much for the formula and link. That is the base I thought you had, but I wanted to be sure. This base is colored so it neutralizes the old Craft Smart Metallic Silver and it will not make a neutral mix if Liquitex BASICS 'Silver' is used instead - such a mix would be "warm" (push reds and oranges).

To make an equivalent of an Elektra™ mix (which is what you are doing), I would recommend making C&S™ Ultra and then darkening it with the N6 paint. I believe the C&S™ Ultra base tint formula to use with Behr paint is V - 5/384 oz., although it seems that Behr may have changed the names of their tints so it could be something other than V which is or was their symbol for the tint color Magenta. The base color you want for making C&S™ Ultra using Behr paint is 5/384 oz. of Magenta tint added to a QUART of #1850 (or equivalent).
Then i need to buy another base and conserve the N6 or i need to edit the #1850 Base or buy another
i found that:
It's kind of hard to mess the base for C&S™ Ultra up, but I guess it's possible. If you want to try a Behr base get a quart of Behr #1850 (or equivalent) and have them add 5/384 oz. of Magenta tint to the can and shake. Otherwise get the Valspar at Lowe's. BTW, Lowe's just renamed the Valspar Ultra Premium latex Enamel to Valspar Ultra Premium Super Flat Finish. It still has the same item number, 213484.
How i need to ask the paint in home depot?
 

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Discussion Starter #103
Then i need to buy another base and conserve the N6 or i need to edit the #1850 Base or buy another.
The #1850 base you have is tinted (colored) to make a neutral gray mix when the old Craft Smart Metallic Silver paint was added it to. Liquitex BASICS 'Silver' will not make a neutral gray mix using that base.

The N6 paint is used to change C&S™ Ultra (and the old C&S™) to a darker neutral gray mix.

How i need to ask the paint in home depot?
You need to ask the paint-person at Home Depot for a Quart of Behr #1850 and to tint it with 5/384th of an ounce of Magenta tint.
 

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The #1850 base you have is tinted (colored) to make a neutral gray mix when the old Craft Smart Metallic Silver paint was added it to. Liquitex BASICS 'Silver' will not make a neutral gray mix using that base.

The N6 paint is used to change C&S™ Ultra (and the old C&S™) to a darker neutral gray mix.


You need to ask the paint-person at Home Depot for a Quart of Behr #1850 and to tint it with 5/384th of an ounce of Magenta tint.
I asked in homedepot(am from mexico, sorry i forgot to mention) and they do not handle that tint how can i ask for them in mexico, and the diferece its to much if i use this base, its going to be big diference?
C&S™ #3 base.
1 quart of Behr #1850
Tint oz. 384th oz.
C 0 4
F 0 1
 

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Discussion Starter #105
I asked in homedepot(am from mexico, sorry i forgot to mention) and they do not handle that tint how can i ask for them in mexico, and the diferece its to much if i use this base, its going to be big diference?
C&S™ #3 base.
1 quart of Behr #1850
Tint oz. 384th oz.
C 0 4
F 0 1
No, don't use the base of the old C&S™ #3 mix, it is too strong a color and will cause a "warm" color push to the final mix. I can't imagine Home Depot not having the Magenta tint since it is one of the basic tint colors used to mix many of the colors for even their own color cards as well as many others. The color code for Magenta is "V". For reference only, "C" is Yellow Oxide and "F" is Red Oxide.

If you really can't get the Behr #1850 tinted with Magenta then just use the untinted #1850; the resulting mix won't be quite as neutral but it will still be well within acceptable standards. :T
 

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I've recently set up my first projector install, and am already quite happy with the images that I'm getting. I say quite happy, because I'm not 100% happy with the black level I'm getting, particularly when the average screen brightness is high.

I do most of my viewing in complete darkness, but my room is not light controlled at all with white walls, cream carpet and cream leather sofa. The ceiling is very high, and likely doesn't impact things much, but it's white as well.

I'm currently using a BOC screen, and given that it's nearly white, I can understand why I'm having problems. I'm therefore looking to paint it with some DIY paint mix, and I'm at the point of testing various blends to make a choice.

As others have said before, I'm not interested in getting involved in the discussions on why AVS forums mixes are bad or good, and I won't be having discussions about your paint mixes there either. I do appreciate the scientific approach that you're taking with measurements though, and I intend to do the same with my test panels as well.

Since my problems are not exactly ambient light, and more reflected light, would you recommend C&S Ultra for my application, or would I be better off choosing BW Ultra or Elektra for my needs? I'm happy to try several options, and would appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks for your help!

For reference, my projector is a JVC DLA-RS46U, projecting onto a 45" CIH 2.35:1 screen (~115" 2.35:1 / ~92" 16:9). I'm not using an anamorphic lens, and I'm projecting at about 13.5' from the screen.
 

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Discussion Starter #107
Welcome to HTS! :wave:

I've recently set up my first projector install, and am already quite happy with the images that I'm getting. I say quite happy, because I'm not 100% happy with the black level I'm getting, particularly when the average screen brightness is high.
With a white/brightly colored room you are still getting the equivalent of ambient light due to the projector light reflecting off those surfaces and back onto the screen.

I'm currently using a BOC screen, and given that it's nearly white, I can understand why I'm having problems. I'm therefore looking to paint it with some DIY paint mix, and I'm at the point of testing various blends to make a choice.
While straight BOC makes a nice screen in a darker HT, it can have problems with white/light HT surfaces. The BOC samples I have measured have all come very close to N9, but they had no gloss whatsoever so they produced a darker image than even a non-reflectively enhanced N9 paint.

As others have said before, I'm not interested in getting involved in the discussions on why AVS forums mixes are bad or good, and I won't be having discussions about your paint mixes there either. I do appreciate the scientific approach that you're taking with measurements though, and I intend to do the same with my test panels as well.
I don't blame people for not wanting to become enmeshed in the variances between AVS DIY Screens and here, but since you appreciate a scientific approach to screens I must reiterate that they have not done ANY objective testing for mix color or gain and all their "facts" are based on "by eye" subjectiveness which simply doesn't work for properly determining either color neutrality or gain. But in the end it's just paint, try whatever mixes you wish. :T

Since my problems are not exactly ambient light, and more reflected light, would you recommend C&S Ultra for my application, or would I be better off choosing BW Ultra or Elektra for my needs? I'm happy to try several options, and would appreciate any suggestions.
No, C&S™ Ultra would be too bright for you. What you need is a paint that will absorb more light than an N9 so I would recommend an N8. You don't say what paints you are thinking of using, but Sherwin-Williams has a paint color called 'Unique Gray' that, at least my can, is a VERY neutral N8 gray. This color can probably be gotten in almost any brand of paint you wish to use. As of now we are recommending Valspar Signature interior matte paint due to both it's availability (any Lowe's store) and it's quality (not as good as Sherwin-Williams or Benjamin Moore paints, but much better than Behr).

The Elektra™ mixes can't really be made any more because they depended on a metallic paint that is no longer available. Black Widow Ultra™ now fills that roll.

If you desire more gain from any neutral gray paint (flat or matte finish) you can simply mix it with 20% Auto Air Aluminum-fine to get a Black Widow Ultra™ mix.

Thanks for your help!
No problem! :T
 

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Thanks very much for the quick response Harpmaker, and thanks also for your understanding re. the discussion of AVS DIY paint blends.

I will be using an i1 Display Pro (i1D3) colourimeter for quantifying the end results of the screen paints that I test, and though this doesn't give me the capability to see if a paint is reflectively neutral like a spectrophotometer would, I think it will give me enough of an idea of the impact each test paint I choose to use is having, and in the case of this forum's suggestions, spectro results have often been posted anyway.

Given your suggestions, can I get your agreement that a good starting point would be two test panels, one with plain Sherwin-Williams 'Unique Gray', and one with 'Unique Gray' and (newer formula) AAA-F for a Black Widow Ultra™ mix?

I have Lowes, Home Depot and Sherwin-Williams all within a few miles from me, so all are easy to get to. You mention that Sherwin-Williams paints are the best, so I assume that you'd recommend using their version of their 'Unique Gray'? Should I be asking for a specific 'Base' for this paint when I buy it?
 

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Discussion Starter #109
Thanks very much for the quick response Harpmaker, and thanks also for your understanding re. the discussion of AVS DIY paint blends.
No worries. BTW, just so you are aware, you can talk about the AVS mixes, good or bad, here if you want to. Where we ran into problems with them was when we did objective testing of some of their mixes and the results didn't mesh with what they were telling people, that got us on their "hit list" faster than lightening. We only have one testing protocol here (it matches industry standards) and that is applied to all screens and screen samples both commercial and DIY. Also, just so you know, my first DIY screen was the SF mix being suggested at the time (some years ago).

I will be using an i1 Display Pro (i1D3) colourimeter for quantifying the end results of the screen paints that I test, and though this doesn't give me the capability to see if a paint is reflectively neutral like a spectrophotometer would, I think it will give me enough of an idea of the impact each test paint I choose to use is having, and in the case of this forum's suggestions, spectro results have often been posted anyway.
Can't the i1D3 take spot readings? I'm not familiar with that device, but I assumed it would have a built-in light source; if not then that would be a problem. If you want any CIE LAB readings from your test mixes you could send Mech or myself some small samples (about a square inch) of them and we would gladly tell you the results.

Given your suggestions, can I get your agreement that a good starting point would be two test panels, one with plain Sherwin-Williams 'Unique Gray', and one with 'Unique Gray' and (newer formula) AAA-F for a Black Widow Ultra™ mix?
You could do that. While I haven't tested 'Unique Gray' with AAA-F added to it I suspect the AAA-F would darken the mix slightly, but make up for that due to the added reflectivity. Mech did some testing of Black Widow Ultra™ mixes, but I have been tied up with family health issues since early summer and they are still ongoing.

I have Lowes, Home Depot and Sherwin-Williams all within a few miles from me, so all are easy to get to. You mention that Sherwin-Williams paints are the best, so I assume that you'd recommend using their version of their 'Unique Gray'? Should I be asking for a specific 'Base' for this paint when I buy it?
Generally speaking, yes SW paints are better than Valspar or Behr; but the Valspar Signature is used by commercial painters where Behr is not. If quality of finish is the main factor then I would use SW Duration interior in matte finish. If cost is the main factor then I would go with Valspar Signature interior matte. BTW, we don't suggest not to use Behr paints because AVS is so high on their use, but rather we and our friends have had problems with that brand of paint. Also commercial painting forums dislike Behr paint so much most posters on them that are commercial painters won't even use it if the home-owner requests it.

You don't need to ask for a specific base when getting a known color. The only thing you need to do is specify the type of paint (Duration for SW and Valspar Signature for Lowe's) and also the finish (matte for both). These paints are both listed as having the same gloss level as the old Valspar Ultra Premium interior in flat enamel finish that we used to use for our mixes.
 

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You caught me literally at exactly the right moment Harpmaker - just as I was pulling into the Lowes parking lot!

I ended up purchasing 2 quarts of Valspar Signature Interior Matte paint, tinted to:


  • Glidden Veil
  • Sherwin-Williams Unique Gray
I decided to go with both of these, because I think I remember reading that Veil had been tested as being both very close in terms of tint to the original BW, and also close to the original BW when mixed with the new AAA-F paint.

I'll probably end up doing four paint tests now, both with and without AAA-F to see which gives me the best results both perceptually and scientifically. I think I might need the gain of the AAA-F because I'm getting close to being lumen challenged at the 2.35:1 zoom on my screen and projection distance, and especially with 3D!

I'm not sure if everyone has it in their area, but my local Home Depot has a special purchase price on some 3' x 3' dry erase boards at $2.48 each. These are basically just hardboard with a gloss white surface, and will therefore make great test panels at a good usable size...

Painting starts tonight!
 

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Can't the i1D3 take spot readings? I'm not familiar with that device, but I assumed it would have a built-in light source; if not then that would be a problem. If you want any CIE LAB readings from your test mixes you could send Mech or myself some small samples (about a square inch) of them and we would gladly tell you the .
Harp/Mech,

I have an EyeOne Pro spectro and a Jeti 1201 and would appreciate getting some info on how these measurements are taken. As I am based in Malaysia, a lot these paints are not available or are marketed differently and if possible would like to document how the local paints are.

Appreciate it. If this is not the right forum a PM would do.
 

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Harp/Mech,

I have an EyeOne Pro spectro and a Jeti 1201 and would appreciate getting some info on how these measurements are taken. As I am based in Malaysia, a lot these paints are not available or are marketed differently and if possible would like to document how the local paints are.

Appreciate it. If this is not the right forum a PM would do.
You can use the X-Rite software or you can use something else. I use BabelColor to get my readings most of the time. Occasionally I'll use CalMAN, but that would be an expensive option.

And you need to use the i1pro for spot readings. The Jeti can't do those.
 

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Discussion Starter #113
You caught me literally at exactly the right moment Harpmaker - just as I was pulling into the Lowes parking lot!
Glad you got my post in time. :bigsmile:

I ended up purchasing 2 quarts of Valspar Signature Interior Matte paint, tinted to:


  • Glidden Veil
  • Sherwin-Williams Unique Gray
I decided to go with both of these, because I think I remember reading that Veil had been tested as being both very close in terms of tint to the original BW, and also close to the original BW when mixed with the new AAA-F paint.
Correct on both counts. You will probably notice that there is not that much difference between those colors. The difference between a ~N7.5 ('Veil') and a ~N8 ('Unique Gray') isn't all that much.

I'll probably end up doing four paint tests now, both with and without AAA-F to see which gives me the best results both perceptually and scientifically. I think I might need the gain of the AAA-F because I'm getting close to being lumen challenged at the 2.35:1 zoom on my screen and projection distance, and especially with 3D!
Adding AAA-F should increase the gain a discernible amount when under projection, but it won't be a day-and-night difference. Black Widow™, and thus Black Widow Ultra™, was designed to increase gain, but to do so while maintaining a very wide viewing cone. If you have seen Mech's gain charts of BW™ and of the old Valspar Ultra Premium paint in 'Veil' (here) you will see that for all intents and purposes BW™ has no viewing cone at all, but does have a higher gain than 'Veil'. This is as planned. When you introduce higher gain you WILL begin to have a detectable viewing cone, it's physics.

I'm not sure if everyone has it in their area, but my local Home Depot has a special purchase price on some 3' x 3' dry erase boards at $2.48 each. These are basically just hardboard with a gloss white surface, and will therefore make great test panels at a good usable size...
Actually no... painting glossy white surfaces does NOT effect picture quality unless you are using a paint mix with more than normal translucency (which is bad). Any light that is visibly returned after penetrating the top coat of paint might increase image brightness a very small amount, but it will also soften the image and decrease image contrast. Just think about what the light rays are doing; first most are reflected from the top layer of paint back to your eyes (this is desirable), much of the light that penetrates the top layer is absorbed by the paint layers, but if the mix is not opaque enough some light may bounce off the bottom surface and eventually make their way back out and go to your eye, but those light rays will not be in line with the original beams of the projected image, but have been scattered via reflection and refraction by going through the paint mix twice and reflecting off the white surface of the substrate. When people want to use a piece of "white board" to paint a screen mix on I always recommend using the rear of the panel that isn't coated (as long as it's smooth) and to prime it before painting it. The white melamine or vinyl coating on the other side will aid in preventing the substrate from warping. Good find on those panels, but I'd use the back of them.

Painting starts tonight!
Good Luck! :T
 

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Discussion Starter #114
Harp/Mech,

I have an EyeOne Pro spectro and a Jeti 1201 and would appreciate getting some info on how these measurements are taken. As I am based in Malaysia, a lot these paints are not available or are marketed differently and if possible would like to document how the local paints are.

Appreciate it. If this is not the right forum a PM would do.
I use Bablecolor to get my basic spectro readings then I have a custom spreadsheet file to make the charts and graphs I publish.
 

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I recently managed to convince my employer that I needed an i1Pro2, which arrived this last weekend. I've already used the meter to calibrate a few displays, but I too am interested in the methodology for measuring paint colours.

I've been using ArgyllCMS to create 3D LUTs in the past, and I've discovered that the spotread command is able to draw up a spectral output chart for reflective reads. I'm obviously most interested in free software, and I couldn't find any features in the i1Profiler software that seemed similar.

Bablecolor is commercial software isn't it?
 

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OK, so I realise that this is not the ideal place to ask these questions, but I'm not yet able to send PMs, and the discussion does seem to have at least started in this thread...

I now have an i1Pro2, and have been using ArgyllCMS to do spot reads of the various paint mixes (and materials) that I've been testing over the last few months.

As I understand it, the i1Pro2 takes reflective measurements by illuminating the surface with a D50 tungsten filament lamp integrated inside the device itself.

ArgyllCMS is able to give spectral outputs of the reading at 3.33nm resolution, as well as XYZ values. I believe that Lab and RGB values can then be calculated from the XYZ values, and ArgyllCMS is able to do some of this work for you as well.

I'm able to create spectrum plots using this data, in a similar way to those created by mechman and Harpmaker in the past, but I'd like to know the process for deriving the RGB values, and therefore the decision that the finish is indeed 'neutral'.

Using the Bluce Lindbloom calculator, I have found so far, that the materials and paint blends nearest to neutral appear to result in a calculated CCT value of very very close to 5000K, and I'm assuming that this is because a D50 lamp is used in the i1Pro2, and the Bruce Lindbloom calculator defaults to D50 reference white.

Unfortunately, I'm currently unable to see how you're getting RGB results for D65 white point, when the i1Pro2 has a D50 lamp. Is there some other sequence of entering XYZ values into the Bruce Lindbloom calculator that I should be trying; I really want to be able to offer some comparable results to those seen around this website.

Harpmaker, you mentioned that you have a custom spreadsheet; is this something that you'd be able to share?

Thanks for your help!
 

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Thanks for the tip Yannis, I've now worked out how to do take the measurements in ArgyllCMS, and have constructed a spreadsheet template that looks similar to some of the reports that I've seen on here that I think have come from Calman.

So as not to clutter this thread, I think I'm going to start a new one on my work trying to choose a screen paint. I think my experiences will be valuable to others, and though I may actually end up using a Cream and Sugar Ultra mix, I'd like to share my work and results on the forum.
 

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I've started another thread about the work that I've been doing to improve image quality of my system, and I'm at the point where I'd like to choose a screen paint and get going with the sprayer!

My latest test panel was Valspar tinted 'Veil' Black Widow Ultra 4:1, and though I loved the black level and appearance of colours, I feel that it took too much brightness from the image; it measured as a very neutral grey, of about N7.4.

I'm not the kind of person that wants 20+ fL from the screen, but my current setup with Black Out Cloth is providing me with 15 fL 16:9 at an aperture of 7, 2.35:1 at an aperture of 0. I do watch some 3D, and my lamp (and projector) is only about a month old, so there will inevitably be some reduction in brightness to come.

My understanding is that Black Out Cloth has a gain of about 0.85, and my spectrometer measurements indicate that it's about an N8.7 shade of grey.

I was hoping that I would be able to find a paint that has an equivalent gain, but is a slightly darker shade. But I'd also be happy with a similar shade, but a slightly higher gain.

I've read some threads that say it's possible to create a Black Widow Ultra with a white base, and the result will be about an N8.5 shade of grey, and that does indeed sound close to what I'm looking for.

Cream and Sugar on the other hand, works out as around an N9.5 shade of grey, which also sounds good.

What I'm trying to find out now, is the purpose and benefits to adding aluminium in the case of Black Widow, and Mica in the case of Cream and Sugar. If these additions create a slight viewing cone, whilst staying clear of hot-spotting, then that's exactly what I'm looking for I think...

Could someone shed some light on the intended performance enhancements that Black Widow and Cream and Sugar have over a basic neutral grey of the same level.
 
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