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Thanks Ricci, These are the type of results I was hopeing to see from the DTS. I am hopeing I will have mine soon.:clap:
 

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Interesting. The horn sub is louder every time, however it seems to less accurately reproduce the original signal above 40hz than the XXX subs, there is always more content in the 45hz range, less in the 50-60 and more in the 75-90, which is interesting to me. It may just be room placement but it looks like the XXX subs are a bit more true to the original signal than the horn, but the horn does have some pretty impressive volume for a pair of 12s.
 

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Do you still have the XXX LLT?

I'm thinking that using horns for the woofer section of a 3 way speaker would be an excellent implementation. Say 60-300hz capable.
The bass bins (folded corner horns) of our 50 year old 3 way Klipshorns do an outstanding job of that. I can't wait for the DTS-10 to get here and fill in below.

Rod
 

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Rod, if you don't mind me asking, when did you order yours? How long of a wait will it be?
 

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Rod, if you don't mind me asking, when did you order yours? How long of a wait will it be?
I ordered on Nov 11. According to UPS Freight tracking it is at Kent, WA right now and supposed to be in Vancouver, BC today. We will probably see it around Wednesday and hope to be able to do the assembly this weekend.

Getting excited!

Rod
 

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Great. I ordered mine around the same time so I should hear something soon. Good luck..:T
 

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Great. I ordered mine around the same time so I should hear something soon. Good luck..:T
Did you get a freight tracking number from Danley? You should be able to check it online and have a pretty good idea when you will get it.

Good luck to you too!

Rod
 

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No, I haven't got anything yet but hopefully it will be soon.
 

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Discussion Starter #111
Yes I still have my ported XXX.

The 2 sealed subs have a better natural room response and all of those last measurements are subject to room acoustics. Meaning that it is not necessarily the enclosures dictating the accuracy of the playback. The samples used were mostly 35hz and up kick drum to look at short term peak output. The one was a deep 25hz centered pulse. The DTS-10 has massive output above 30hz and with typical music content not having much bass below there will have more output than the pair of sealed 18's and would have way more than a single ported 18". Whether anyone will actually be using those rock concert type levels is another matter. For high level really deep bass HT effects I believe that the 18's will have more headroom. Again whether this type of very loud volume will be used is in doubt unless you routinely listen at REF level.
 

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Ricci said:
The 2 sealed subs have a better natural room response and all of those last measurements are subject to room acoustics. Meaning that it is not necessarily the enclosures dictating the accuracy of the playback
Right, I figured some of the extra intensity on those graphs from the horn were due to peaks in the FR.

For high level really deep bass HT effects I believe that the 18's will have more headroom. Again whether this type of very loud volume will be used is in doubt unless you routinely listen at REF level.
This goes back to some of the initial reasoning behind the low tuning of a LLT - a "standard" tuning from years ago, say 25-30hz, would yield more usable headroom in the more common frequencies, but with high excursion 15" and 18" drivers, the question is whether one really needs it. Thus the shift of capability into lower frequencies for HT performance. It also makes sense seeing as these bass horns designed by Tom were initially meant for sound reinforcement applications where the really low stuff gets no use. Those places probably all use 30hz high pass filters.

Again though, using horns for the bass section of speakers could be the ticket, as that's where most of the "punch" is anyway. Then let the large, high excursion woofers handle the really low frequencies.
 

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Steve, that's not extreme enough. Think...

B&C DE250 compression driver with a QSC 152i waveguide- >1000Hz
Horn loaded B&C 15PS76 (or B&C 15PL100)- 150-1000Hz
LabHorn, DTS-10 (should make it to ~90-100Hz), TH-115, or Tuba TH- 30-150Hz
Thigpen Rotary Woofer- 1-30Hz :R

I've talked a friend into the first three, now I have to figure out how to get him to re-mortgage his house for the TRW. :devil:

EDIT: Sorry, let a little too much slip. Here are the correct numbers for these subs.
 

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Findings tweeters that can play really loud and really clean isn't really a problem nowadays, is it? :scratch: Mids aren't much of a problem either to my knowledge. The upper bass section though is an area where you kind of need to spend a fair chunk of change with at least two beefy woofers to do an adequate job of reproduction. If you can get by with one driver and a horn enclosure made from plywood, that can make it easier to achieve the end goal.
 

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I think you are reading too much into a flippant post, but I'm bored...

When you say tweeters are you talking about dome tweets? Let's see most are rated for about 150w with a 1600Hz xover, and ~90dB 1W/1m. This gives us a max SPL of ~112dB at 1m. No one listens at 1m, 3m seems more common so 102.5dB. Then there is the reality that most tweets seem to start crapping out at ~105dB 1m. Let's not even start on compression, BSC, or Lpads. Then there is peak power, but compression ruins that dream. ;)

Mids... Same deal only the sensitivity is lower, and power handling is up. Make it two and your in the 108dB range at 3m, but they started distorting about the same time as the tweets. :crying:

What most seem to consider the upper bass or mid bass is just the good 'ole woofer section to me. :R A ported 12", or two sealed are the minimum here. Even then the numbers only end up a little better than the other two. Just enough headroom left to turn the bass nob on the receiver up. Funny how that works out isn't it. :T

If you want to get to 105dB cleanly at 3m you are going to have to go to something more exotic. Line arrays are nice, you could add a waveguide and add more woofage, or venture into Pro-Land. Pro-Land is a funny place full of loud drivers that just don't make any sense. Be very weary when exploring options here.

The example from the post above could hit 110dB at 3m power by a T-amp, while coasting. Minus the TRW of course. :D If you like it loud, and are in a mid to large sized room a regular setup will never satisfy.

I think a lot of the people in these forums fall into this category, but don't realize it. I think a lot of people here would be more satisfied if they super sized at least their L & R before trying their 4th sub out.

If you want to start another thread about this topic I'll talk your ear off. :whistling:

Sorry, for going OT Guys. :innocent:
 

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Unless your room is treated on all surfaces, you will have reflections from the tweeter, so you won't drop to 102.5db in that example at 3m. You are correct though, if your goal is to watch everything at reference level, you'll probably want more than what one tweeter per channel can offer - personally, I find -10 to -15 plenty loud enough, and I think most others do as well. Hence, the tweeter is only seeing a few watts, and it is playing pretty cleanly almost all of the time, especially compared to the woofer section in most speakers.
 

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:eek:fftopic2:
Tom Holman explains that if all the channels in a 5.1 system are driven to Dolby Reference level, a single subwoofer designed to handle all the bass from all five main channels (plus LFE) must be capable of producing 121db without overloading or limiting. Of course this is very loud, but thanks to the characteristics of human sound perception, 121db in the deep bass is subjectively equivalent to about 100db at 400hz - still loud but far less intimidating In the real world, most listeners make do with considerably less headroom for several reasons: they use playback levels of 5-10db below reference; all 5.1 channels are required to reproduce maximum bass levels only rarely; and their subwoofers incorporate dynamic limiting to keep them from overloading when driven beyond their maximum capability.
 

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Well actually with compression you would have never hit 112dB to begin with, so when you factor back in boundary gains it ends up about the same. ;)

If we want to talk about "most listeners" they use the two 3-4" fullrange drivers in their TVs, and say the people with WalMart HTiB systems are crazy and are going to go deaf.

My post was not about "most listeners."

I don't understand the resistance here. Even with 95dB peaks if I swapped my mains (one tweeter, two 8" mids, and two 12" woof per, crossed over at 44Hz) with my NatPs ( one tweet, two 7" woof, 80Hz xover) one would sound more at ease (since both are pretty flat, and designed by the same guy this means better here) than the other, and it wouldn't be the NatPs. Maybe I should give the old Bose 2.1 system another try. They should sound great if I cross the cubes over to my sub at 200Hz, and turn the volume way down. :D

It's more than just total SPL.
Key words- Dynamic Range.
 

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Right, I figured some of the extra intensity on those graphs from the horn were due to peaks in the FR.


This goes back to some of the initial reasoning behind the low tuning of a LLT - a "standard" tuning from years ago, say 25-30hz, would yield more usable headroom in the more common frequencies, but with high excursion 15" and 18" drivers, the question is whether one really needs it. Thus the shift of capability into lower frequencies for HT performance. It also makes sense seeing as these bass horns designed by Tom were initially meant for sound reinforcement applications where the really low stuff gets no use. Those places probably all use 30hz high pass filters.

Again though, using horns for the bass section of speakers could be the ticket, as that's where most of the "punch" is anyway. Then let the large, high excursion woofers handle the really low frequencies.
Steve, I know you've been following these here and on AVS... but I think you're missing something. Not only does this DTS KILL the high output LLTs from 40Hz on up, BUT, it holds it's own down low as well....

from what I gather, it is still better down low by a small margin, it just really stomps them above 30Hz.
 
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