[fishinbob]

I just ordered one of these.
http://darbeevision.com/
They have generated quite a bit of interest on some other forums and I'm surprised to see nothing about it here.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
It looks interesting. As AVS is selling it at their Storefront, I am sure there is going to be a great deal of discussion about it over there. Please report back with your impressions as I am sure many will be interested here to read your findings.
Cheers,
JJ

 

[Alan Brown]

I just ordered one of these.
http://darbeevision.com/
They have generated quite a bit of interest on some other forums and I'm surprised to see nothing about it here.

Utter nonsense! The first example is in the opening paragraph of the product's 'User Guide:' "DVP is based on the discovery that fidelity is not the end-point in image science."

If you want more image authenticity and want to preserve artistic integrity, calibrate your video display system according to the same industry standards and best practices observed by the program authors and mastering technicians. Do they use and recommend this device? If not, why bother? If your objective is more "pop," or an altered program that appeals to your personal sense of "realism," then, by all means, try this product. You can consider this device as providing an enhancement to the original image or inducing its own sophisticated style of distortion. The truth is, using it alters the original image. You may find it pleasing. The fundamental goal in any mass communication medium is the delivery of the original message unaltered.

It's not really "....all about the art," as Joe Kane would say. It's all about the "pop." This baloney never ends. If a particular kind of signal distortion appeals to focus groups, money can be made off of it. I don't object to anyone making money, or some individual's preference for distortion. Agreement is not required, clarity of communication is. What I object to is such fallacious statements as, "...fidelity is not the end-point in image science." In the context of video program reproduction, it most certainly is. Unfortunately, some engineers seem to have difficulty comprehending the artistic side of program delivery.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

 

[lcaillo]

I just ordered one of these.
http://darbeevision.com/
They have generated quite a bit of interest on some other forums and I'm surprised to see nothing about it here.

I doubt that there will be much interest on this forum. I think Alan pretty much summed it up.

Embedding depth information? Seriously?

 

[lcaillo]

I just ordered one of these.
http://darbeevision.com/
They have generated quite a bit of interest on some other forums and I'm surprised to see nothing about it here.

I doubt that there will be much interest on this forum. I think Alan pretty much summed it up.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
While I too am spurious, I figured as Bob had already ordered one, let him give his impressions. I actually deleted a sentence about just how much profit margin there must be in those little boxes and how that can sometimes create self serving Threads/Posts by those with a financial interest. However, sometimes I somewhat pull my punches especially when a Member has already purchased something.
J

 

[lcaillo]

I would be happy to do a thorough evaluation of the product if they want to send us a sample and discuss in detail the nature of the technology and the science and assumptions behind its operation. The very premise and language of the web site and it promotion indicates to me that there is much room for skepticism, at best.

 

[Tonto]

I think what this boils down to is like I have always said...1080p just can't reproduce enough colors to satisfy the human eye. I wonder if this product is upscaleing like current AVR's do. If it is, it might be onto something with people with older equipment that don't offer this feature. An inline upscaler might not be a bad investment if it converts to 1440p or 4K. I don't think this is what this product is doing...they would extoll its virtures as such. The way the are advertising, it sounds like snake oil. But hey, lets see how it stacks up.

 

[lcaillo]

1080p has nothing to do with the number of colors that can be reproduced. Color gamut does. Wide gamut is possible, and even implemented in some systems, but not in video. I would disagree that the eye cannot be satisfied with current display technology. In fact, for most observers, the current systems are quite adequate. Some may prefer the kind of enhancement that this device provides, just like some prefer the rather distorted reproduction that most sets display out of the box in "vivid" modes. Those of us who prefer a display system or audio system that reproduces the image that was produced as faithfully as possible likely are not going to be impressed.

This is not a scaler. It is an image enhancement system that by its claims makes assumptions about what is salient in the image and attempts to enhance those features. I would make the analogy of an aphex unit in audio processing. It may be useful to get certain effects in a mix, but applying it to a playback system produces some unpredictable and annoying results.

 

[Alan Brown]

1080p has nothing to do with the number of colors that can be reproduced. Color gamut does. Wide gamut is possible, and even implemented in some systems, but not in video. I would disagree that the eye cannot be satisfied with current display technology. In fact, for most observers, the current systems are quite adequate. Some may prefer the kind of enhancement that this device provides, just like some prefer the rather distorted reproduction that most sets display out of the box in "vivid" modes. Those of us who prefer a display system or audio system that reproduces the image that was produced as faithfully as possible likely are not going to be impressed.

This is not a scaler. It is an image enhancement system that by its claims makes assumptions about what is salient in the image and attempts to enhance those features. I would make the analogy of an aphex unit in audio processing. It may be useful to get certain effects in a mix, but applying it to a playback system produces some unpredictable and annoying results.

I basically agree with all this. It should also be mentioned that numbers of colors relates to bit depth as well. Consumer video is limited to an 8 bit standardized system and will remain so for now. There are a few exceptions to this in computer gaming, some digital photography/camcorders, and graphics. Broadcasting, cable, online streaming, DVD, Blu-ray Disc, and video games are all 8 bit.

Film and digital cinema use higher bit rates for better color. However, digital video and HDTV still offer superior color to legacy video formats and have impressed the vast majority of consumers with the improvement.

Tonto's appraisal of what the Darblet device may be doing is a bit surreal in my opinion. The company offers a white paper on their site for download that describes in more detail what the device does. It offers some unique and patented processing that has produced a pleasing effect for some viewers. Such effects may even help an inferior display system look more impressive. However, once again, they do not value the principle of fidelity (faithfulness to the original signal) over subjective perception. Most consumers have no idea what a reference video image is supposed to look like. Therefore, consumers can be impressed with a non-reference image. Unfortunately, the same can be said for a wide swath of consumer video professional salesmen, system designers, installers, and marketing types. There are far too many consumer video market vendors and practitioners who have not sufficiently studied video program production, movie production, and video industry standards and best practices. This has resulted in much confusion, misinformation, misconceptions and wrong practice in the home theater arena.

 

[darbeedr]

Hello All,

I am pleased that the Darblet has caught your attention in this group. I join this group to simply make it easy for the users to interact with our company. Your lively discussion is already quite interesting.

Ultimately, the reason that we embrace your comments and feedback is because it will make our product better. You drive our excellence and we respect that fact. So I thank you in advance for that.

Please understand that we are big fans of fidelity. To capture and display fidelity that is true to the original scene is a wonderful goal. Our mantra includes, "make the best fidelity you possibly can." Beyond that we love to discuss all the many and amazing futures of computational imaging.

Thank you,
DarbeeDr
aka/Larry Pace, COO, President
DarbeeVision Inc.

 

[Alan Brown]

Hello All,

I am pleased that the Darblet has caught your attention in this group. I join this group to simply make it easy for the users to interact with our company. Your lively discussion is already quite interesting.

Ultimately, the reason that we embrace your comments and feedback is because it will make our product better. You drive our excellence and we respect that fact. So I thank you in advance for that.

Please understand that we are big fans of fidelity. To capture and display fidelity that is true to the original scene is a wonderful goal. Our mantra includes, "make the best fidelity you possibly can." Beyond that we love to discuss all the many and amazing futures of computational imaging.

Thank you,
DarbeeDr
aka/Larry Pace, COO, President
DarbeeVision Inc.

Hi, Larry,

It's good to see you are interested in being a part of the discussion. I'm big on clarity and understanding the definition of terms used in a debate. It's also of value to get as close to the source for information about an issue as possible. Your comments here on "fidelity" seem to conflict with statements in your 'User Guide' and the white paper on your site. What is your concept of "fidelity" and "original scene?"

Are any studios using your processing prior to their post production approval monitors/projectors? How about optical disc labs? Can you provide a list of any directors and/or cinematographers, etc., who use and recommend your processing for consumer use in viewing their work? Did you have any endorsements from the Motion Picture Academy, when they sent out review discs to voting members prior to the Oscars, recommending movies be viewed with your processing? How about in the review and voting process prior to the Emmys? Any other awards shows? Have you presented any papers on your theory and/or processing to SMPTE?

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

 

[lcaillo]

Larry,

We would love to get a unit to review. We would also like to know more about the science behind the technology. What are the underlying principles and what research and theoretical perspectives support it?

Understand, the forum welcomes discussion of all products, but be prepared to justify your processing with facts and testing. There is a rather low tolerance for hype, and zero tolerance for manufacturers who simply want to promote their product without providing information that increases the knowledge of our users. If simple promotion is the goal, you are welcome to discuss becoming a forum sponsor.

 

[hjones4841]

He has some reputable dealers, but no reviews on their websites. Kinda looks like it is just coming out - nobody has them in stock; one website shows 6/26/12 availability. Price is $269.

 

[bobav]

Hello everyone. I am not a professional just a like av as a hobby to watch movies with a set up I best can afford.
Onkyo txnr 3009, JVC HD350pj, rotell 685 power amp used to bi amp my B&W683fronts and run B&W600s center. Use B&W685 surrounds powered by onkyo and polk bipolar rears and 4 small deftech bipols for heights and wides. A velodyne fsr1800 sub and an older ads18" sub. Panny tcp 50in plasma and a daylite 110 High contrast cinems screen with home made masking system. Just mentioned this to show where I am at Use New sony 790 bd player have tosh ax2, and ellite 58av mostly for audio.

I read about the darbee on another form it piqued my interest. I purchased one and received it last friday. Quickly set it up and found it just gave my picture with my pj more depth and pop. With the demo modes it is easy to compare and I found it very pleasing. There are some inherrent issues reported on another form but they can be worked around. I am sure there are som professionals and purists that will object to this as already stated above. I just know in my unprofessional opinion it is a nice little unit not overly expensive and improves my home theater experience. I watched a 1956 scope film yesterday black and white to be exact and it was amazing how the darblet improved the depth and detail of that standard dvd. I am sure you can find more professional assesments on some other forms and it is a bit new for professional reviews yet. But I would not just blatantly write it off. I also want to thank the company for theyre participation on the forms .
Will be interested to see some of the opinions of some members as they get to try one out.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
I am very glad you are pleased with it. $269 is certainly not cheap and I do not even want to think of what the Dealer Cost is on the DVP. I look forward to a Professional Review of this device and or having someone like Leonard getting a Review Device as I still remain somewhat spurious personally. Then again, the same can be said of expensive AV Cables, and many other topics. In the end, all that matters is that the Owner is happy with it. However, there is the age old issue of those with a financial interest driving the conversation and stirring the pot.
J

 

[bobav]

Yes $269 is not cheap at all. But in comparison to many video and audio enhancements you mention above it is to me less expensive than many in this category. and usually I am quite skeptical to jump on the bandwagon for gimmicks. I found this one quite pleasing if not I would gladly have returned it. Yes I agree the markup probably is quite generous and I too can be very skeptical of company reps, store owners , and some installers posts or real interest in forms. I also have found many very informative and offering some great advise and products. Of course a few professional reviews would be great and I hope some are comming soon. Especially ones not predjuiced for or against this type of product.

 

[lcaillo]

As I have indicated to Larry, we are happy to review it as well as carefully review the technology and science behind it. We have not seen enough to be any more than skeptical at this point, as the premise seems antithetical to image fidelity. Hopefully we can get a sample and test it under a number of image conditions on calibrated and uncalibrated displays.

 

[darbeedr]

As I have indicated to Larry, we are happy to review it as well as carefully review the technology and science behind it. We have not seen enough to be any more than skeptical at this point, as the premise seems antithetical to image fidelity. Hopefully we can get a sample and test it under a number of image conditions on calibrated and uncalibrated displays.

The Darblet has been reviewed and given a solid thumbs up by these individuals you probably know and trust: Gary Reber, Jeff Meier, Josh Zyber and Japanese Video expert Asakura-san, who are among a growing set of famous video gurus who have tested the Darblet. All video purists, puzzled by our approach, and yet all convinced that a our technology represents a new and valid image enhancement to produce a gratifying result.
The Darblet is currently being reviewed by several of the most prominent Home Theater magazines, with their reviews due out in the near future. Come visit us in person at CEDIA.

-DD

 

[lcaillo]

Our readers don't typically go to Cedia.

I have seen Jeff's comments about the device, which are tentative and cursory, but seem to indicate some promise. I have not seen Gary's full review, only the blurb about the new product from CES. Josh's review is here:
http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/darbeevision-darblet/
and like one would expect, he finds some benefit to the device when adjusted properly but found it to look "artificial" when fully engaged.


The patent can be found here, with a pretty good description of the processing involved:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/7995835

This looks like it could have some useful applications, but it is hard to parse the hype at this point. My guess is that the device will work best on calibrated displays or those that are set to ISF of THX levels OOB, and on higher quality sources. People who don't want to have their displays professionally calibrated, use high quality sources, and use the THX or ISF modes with lower contrast may find the most value here. I am guessing that displays driven hard out of the box in some "vivid" mode will look worse with this enhancement or there may be clipping in the highlights on some images since there is contrast enhancement going on here. This is all just speculation, however, until we see it in action.

I wonder how it interacts with compression artifacts. The background softening might actually make some artifacts on motion in the periphery look less offensive, while enhancing the more meaningful parts of the image.

Larry, you might meet less skepticism if you actually provided something more than what appears to be an attempt to promote your product. With some digging, it appears that there may be some merit to what you are doing, but it gets lost in the marketing. Forums like this one usually have a mix of people but a much higher number of more technically educated users who are very cautious about claims without science and validated technology to document actual performance.

I fully understand the challenges of marketing a product in the very ugly climate of today's consumer electronics business, but you won't get a pass on hype and name dropping with no substance here. But then, neither will hard core purists who throw the baby out with the bathwater. Even those people, however, are likely to acknowledge that there may be some value, perhaps for many applications if we can cut through the fluff and get to what it really does.