[Guest]

I'm also interested in a darker screen. Last night I picked up ingredients for cream and sugar, and also found that Folk Art has a couple of interesting metalics. I bought metallic gunmetal gray, and metallic sequin black. Have you tried either of these? I painted a panel using white, silver and gunmetal, and a second with just white and gunmetal. I added some gold to both as well. The results looked promising enough that I want to try some more mixes.

 

[Harpmaker]

Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

I'm also interested in a darker screen. Last night I picked up ingredients for cream and sugar, and also found that Folk Art has a couple of interesting metalics. I bought metallic gunmetal gray, and metallic sequin black. Have you tried either of these? I painted a panel using white, silver and gunmetal, and a second with just white and gunmetal. I added some gold to both as well. The results looked promising enough that I want to try some more mixes.

First, a note to the casual reader; this post has nothing to do with Cream&Sugar. :bigsmile: We are discussing much darker mixes.:nerd: This note now makes no sense since the subject has been moved to it's own thread. :rofl:

Yes, I have tested most, if not all, of the various silver paints from Folk Art. It's interesting that they are the same company that makes the Craft Smart line at Michael's, but the FA metallics have the prismatic effect while the CS metallics don't. Only the Sequin Black doesn't have the prismatic effect, but it seems to be a glossy black paint that has some sparkles added to it. I don't have my samples close-to-hand, but that's the way I remember it.

The Gunmetal Gray does look to have promise for a dark screen, but it has that dratted prismatic effect that breaks white light up into little rainbows. I think something similar could be made by simply putting some black paint in some of the CS Metallic Silver, and it wouldn't have the PE (prismatic effect).

If you try C&S please let us know the results!

 

[Guest]

Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

Does Behr silver metallic have the prismatic effect? ***?

Reminder, these panels are not cream and sugar! I'm using some of the same materials, and some different as well.

The panels I painted look like regular flat paint. I got a magnifying lens and then could see some sparlies, but spaced apart about 1/8" or so. Your picture looked to have many more visible in a 1/32" by 1/32" area.



With my test panels, the blacks were a little better. Whites were dulled some as expected, but that's not a big issue for me. What I liked was that the flesh tones seemed about the same brightness as my lighter shade gray screen.

What would you say the limit is for metallics? Is 50% too much?

 

[mechman]

Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

Does Behr silver metallic have the prismatic effect? ***?

Reminder, these panels are not cream and sugar! I'm using some of the same materials, and some different as well.

The panels I painted look like regular flat paint. I got a magnifying lens and then could see some sparlies, but spaced apart about 1/8" or so. Your picture looked to have many more visible in a 1/32" by 1/32" area.



With my test panels, the blacks were a little better. Whites were dulled some as expected, but that's not a big issue for me. What I liked was that the flesh tones seemed about the same brightness as my lighter shade gray screen.

What would you say the limit is for metallics? Is 50% too much?

tree,

I'm spinning this off of the C&S thread as a thread of it's own titled "Metallic Investigation"

*** and Behr Silver Metallic both exhibit prismatic color shifting.

 

[mechman]

OK I changed my mind on the title. I like DMSI better! :T

 

[Harpmaker]

Re: Cream&Sugar - an N9 reflective screen mix.

Does Behr silver metallic have the prismatic effect? ***?

I haven't tested or used either, but mech says they do and test samples that were sent to me of mixes that use those paints show the prismatic effect.

Every water-based metallic paint I have tested, except the Craft Smart brand or those using aluminum flakes, has shown the PE.

Reminder, these panels are not cream and sugar! I'm using some of the same materials, and some different as well.

OK, cool; I misunderstood.

The panels I painted look like regular flat paint. I got a magnifying lens and then could see some sparlies, but spaced apart about 1/8" or so. Your picture looked to have many more visible in a 1/32" by 1/32" area.

Yes, the C&S mixes all show visible sparkles under bright light from about 8 inches away. The Craft Smart metallics have fairly large sparkles, much larger than the Delta, and most of the Folk Art metallics. IMO, any metallic flakes smaller than those in the Auto Air Aluminum (fine) are too small and seem, at least to me, to behave more like gloss than as very small reflective mirrors. I made a test panel (1x4 feet) of RS-MaxxMudd-LL and a full screen of Silver Fire. Both of these mixes contain a LARGE amount of Delta Pearl and Silver paint; it's most of the mix for Silver Fire. Neither of these show any sparkle until you get your eye extremely close to the surface.

What would you say the limit is for metallics? Is 50% too much?

This will depend on the metallic paints used. For example, C&S is mixed 2:1, base to silver. That is 33% silver paint and the white base is only slightly darkened! The most used Black Widow mix is 4:1; that means that this relatively dark paint only has 20% silver paint in it, but it is WAY darker than C&S!

I did try to use Delta Silver Metallic to make C&S just to see how it would look; I took the mix up to a 1:1 ratio (half Luminous White and half silver) and even though the mix was getting dark (too dark for a C&S mix) there were NO visible sparkles; I mean NONE!

When I get back to experimenting with my dark screen mix I will be using a mix that is almost 100% Craft Smart Metallic Silver; I will add either Deep Base or Valspar clear protector (flat) to cut down on this paints gloss, some colored paints to bring the color to a neutral gray, and perhaps some white paint to lighten the mix if needed.

My understanding is that when too much aluminum-based metallic paint is used the screen will start to look grainy. When too much mica-based metallic paint is used the screen will seem to "shimmer" in white and light colored parts of a scene.

 

[Guest]

I made a test panel of C&S last night. I was running low on silver, and the mix may have been other than 2:1 ratio, and not quite neutral. I eyeballed the mix. This paint was applied over a previous panel I had that was a pretty dark gray. The overall color came out a little darker than the paint as a result. I viewed the panel hanging in front of my screen, and the picture was its equal. In fact, it was as if the test panel was the same as my screen which is a mix of flat, semi-gloss and poly. Almost the same anyway. It had a very slight blue push. Maybe if the C&S mix was thinner, and painted over a very dark gray primer, the result would be a darker gray than standard C&S.

I was thinking of trying a flat clear base as well. Maybe poly, but the sheen might be a problem. I know I'm reinventing the wheel here, and heading in the direction of some other well known mixes, but I'm enjoying the process.

 

[Harpmaker]

I made a test panel of C&S last night.

OK, I'm getting a little confused; you said you weren't using a Cream&Sugar mix, but rather what might be called a C&S derivative right? For the sake of clarity, why don't we refer to C&S derivative mixes as CSD mixes. Just a suggestion. :bigsmile:

I was running low on silver, and the mix may have been other than 2:1 ratio, and not quite neutral. I eyeballed the mix. This paint was applied over a previous panel I had that was a pretty dark gray. The overall color came out a little darker than the paint as a result. I viewed the panel hanging in front of my screen, and the picture was its equal. In fact, it was as if the test panel was the same as my screen which is a mix of flat, semi-gloss and poly. Almost the same anyway. It had a very slight blue push. Maybe if the C&S mix was thinner, and painted over a very dark gray primer, the result would be a darker gray than standard C&S.

Using a different white base paint will have less affect on a CSD mix than using a different silver paint. Using a different silver than Craft Smart can turn the mix into a whole new animal that behaves quite differently. Note my comment on Delta silver in my last post (not a single sparkle to the naked eye even at 1:1).

I did a bit of experimenting with dark undercoats a few months ago and I am of the opinion that the darker the undercoat, the darker the topcoat will look.

I was thinking of trying a flat clear base as well. Maybe poly, but the sheen might be a problem.

You might want to try using Deep Base as a flat clear. The Behr ULTRA is very flat, and if anything, it adds a touch of warmth to the color. I haven't tried other Deep Base brands yet. Valspar clear protector flat from Lowe's is another choice, it is close to the consistency of poly and aids in paint leveling in a similar fashion.

I know I'm reinventing the wheel here, and heading in the direction of some other well known mixes, but I'm enjoying the process.

Come on in, the waters fine! :T But be warned, it's habit forming!:bigsmile:

It's getting to the point where much of what we do could be considered as variations on a theme, but so what? In DIY screen paints, the little things matter. Simply changing one ingredient in a mix could possibly make it better (or worse). As for me, I'm havin' a blast!:dancebanana::yay::dancebanana:

 

[Guest]

Last nights panel was a CSD. It was an untested SW white base, silver, gold and bronze mixed by eye with roughly 2:1 ratio of white to metallic. I was actually intending to use a 1:1 ratio, but I ran out of silver. Tonight I will buy some more. My point was that even a haphazard attempt at C&S works really well!

Is the prismatic effect of other additives really noticeable in actual use?

 

[Harpmaker]

My point was that even a haphazard attempt at C&S works really well!

Very true!

A DIY paint formula doesn't have to be complicated to be good. Some look at the simplicity of the C&S and BW formulae and think the more complicated mixes must be better. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but I think they are wrong.

The published C&S mixes are neutral. CSD mixes may or may not be neutral. This will matter more to those that have less adjustable projectors (like me), but even then, some people prefer a warmer or cooler screen. In my limited testing, I know that the closer a screen is to neutral the better I like it, but that is a personal preference.

Is the prismatic effect of other additives really noticeable in actual use?

I have very limited experience in this area so I have to depend on the experience of others, and they say yes. It usually shows up as a shimmering effect in brighter areas of a scene. I thought I saw what they meant by that when I was testing a high-mica content panel, but it could have been associated with gloss since the panel hot-spotted.

 

[Guest]

I mixed up a dark batch using about 2 parts siver to one part white. ( Plus some gold and bronze to make it neutral ). To this I added the Valspar clear protector. FLAT. After that, I added more silver and went a little darker.

I saw no hotspotting, and the test panels performed like a typical gray with some sheen. The added silver of the second panel did not appear to improve the whites. The second panel was darker than my current screen, but you had to look really hard to see any improvement in the blacks. About the only time I could see the difference was during a fade to black scene. I may continue to experiment with these metallics, but right now I think adding sheen works just as well. This is just my opinion of course, and is based on looking at the test panels, not a full screen.

 

[mechman]

I may continue to experiment with these metallics, but right now I think adding sheen works just as well.

Sheen is not good when it comes to painting a screen. Paint manufacturers make their products with more sheen by removing the reflective part of the paint - TiO2. I've heard folks taking a flat paint and adding poly to it to create 'sheen'. This makes absolutely no sense. :scratch: Why would anyone buy a flat paint and then add sheen when they could have bought a matte or a eggshell or even a semi-gloss.

On the flip side, metallics add to the reflectivity. And they add to it without introducing all the bad side effects of poly's - reduced viewing cone, hot spotting, yellowing over time, etc.

With regards to the Valspar CCP flat, I've shown in the past where using this product as a topcoat negates the qualities of adding aluminum to a screen paint. It's a great product for it's purpose and would more than likely be better than Behr 780 for top coating a Fashion Grey laminate that hot spots.

 

[Harpmaker]

I may continue to experiment with these metallics, but right now I think adding sheen works just as well. This is just my opinion of course, and is based on looking at the test panels, not a full screen.

Before you give up on metallics, give Craft Smart Metallic Silver a shot. It behaves differently than the other silver craft/art paints I have tried. It is also available in Gold and Bronze which you can use to balance color.

 

[Guest]

Before you give up on metallics, give Craft Smart Metallic Silver a shot. It behaves differently than the other silver craft/art paints I have tried. It is also available in Gold and Bronze which you can use to balance color.

Craft smart is what I was using. I was trying to thin it down by mixing it with the Valspar. I was also trying to increase the metalic in the mix to the point where it would hotspot, so that I would know the limits of a mix.

 

[Guest]

Why would anyone buy a flat paint and then add sheen when they could have bought a matte or a eggshell or even a semi-gloss.

Because they have some on hand and like to experiment!

How would you suggest making a good darker than C&S Gray screen with this Craft smart paint? Mixing with the Valspar was Harpmakers idea. I was just trying out what he said he was planning to try.

I want to get more of the metallic particles on the surface where they will do some good? Using a high percentage of metallic paint didn't seem to do that.

 

[Harpmaker]

Craft smart is what I was using.

Sorry, I missed that. I thought you were using the Folk Art paints.

I was trying to thin it down by mixing it with the Valspar. I was trying to get enough metalic to hotspot, so that I would know the limits of a mix.

I'll have to look at my test panel again to be sure, but I think I had to use a 4:1 CSMS to Sherwin-Williams Luminous White to get near the equivalent darkness of the 1:4 BB/AAA mix. IIRC, this hot-spotted. As I said in the C&S thread, I used LW because I had almost a gallon of it. When I start experimenting with a dark mix again I will use the Valspar latex enamel as a base.

The last panel of the dark mix I did was over two months ago. It was a mix of Luminous White/CSMS/Behr ULTRA Deep Base in a 1:10:5 ratio. I then manually color-corrected the mix to get it neutral using non-metallic Craft Smart colors. This mix measures at N7.1, and while the sparkles are quite visible, I would cut back on the Deep Base a bit to bring them out more. The Deep Base was added to cut down on the gloss of the CSMS. Since I'm going for a VERY dark screen, I think the next time I'll leave out the white paint altogether.

 

[mechman]

How would you suggest making a good darker than C&S Gray screen with this Craft smart paint? Mixing with the Valspar was Harpmakers idea. I was just trying out what he said he was planning to try.

I want to get more of the metallic particles on the surface where they will do some good? Using a high percentage of metallic paint didn't seem to do that.

Try something darker than Luminous White. Note the differences in RGB values of Luminous White. Apply them in EasyRGB except to a darker value - say the 170s. And find a match. Buy a quart, mix in the Craft Smart stuff and wallah! :T Check with Harp though first and make sure he hasn't tried this!

 

[mechman]

I quickly did all that stuff! Try PPG 517-4 Gray Stone. That should get you down in the 150-160s.

 

[Harpmaker]

did something similar to mech, but I used the RGB values for True Value "Refinement" which makes a much more neutral C&S mix than the Luminous White does.

TV Refinement: 245, 240, 232

Subtracting 65 from each value gives a target RGB of 180, 175, 167

Benjamin Moore Color Preview "Stone Harbor" is 177, 172, 165
Sherwin-Williams "Pussywillow" is 177, 173, 165

It would be interesting to see how neutral these colors are when CSMS is added to them. My concern would be that if you used a ratio different than the C&S one of 2:1 base to CSMS it would throw off the neutrality, and a ratio of 4:1 or higher would be more the ticket.

 

[Guest]

I'm not really concerned about getting the mix neutral at this point. I can get close enough by eye for now. What I want to do is get enough metallics in the mix to improve the whites. I took a close look at my test panel with some magnification to see how much metallic particles I could see. It looked like plenty, but as I said, the panel was not hot spotting, and the whites looked similar to other gray screens I've made. With the silver metallic, adding more metallic (silver), also darkens the gray. I considered adding *** or something lighter, but was advised that this was going to cause some prismatic effects, so I rulled it out.