[McFinkle]

Hey everyone. I just joined the forum, looks great so far! I'm looking for a bit of guidance and help in designing a subwoofer system. It will primarily be used for live sound but doing music that needs extension down to about 25Hz. I've discovered a few designs on the internet but they either seem to be for PA use and don't have low enough extension or are designed for home theatre use and have extension lower than I need. So these are my goals and limitations:
- F3 of 25Hz
- About a $1700 budget for everything (drivers, wood, hardware, etc.)
- Total cabinet volume less than 100 cubic feet
- As loud as possible!

A few designs I've been considering...
1) 4, 18 cubic feet reflex cabinets loaded with two Alpine SWS15D4's each tuned to about 27 Hz. Theoretically this should provide about 132 dB at 30 Hz at 1 meter.

2) 4 Lilmike Microwreckers. Not too sure about how loud these will get but I estimate it to be about 134 dB at 30 Hz.

I'm open to pretty much any design type. Amps will probably be Behringer iNuke 6000's.
Thanks!

 

[chrapladm]

I believe the MW is about 29cuft. They are a great design. If you want more extension then the LilWrecker would be the next option. Or for more SPL in one cabinet the Ghorn loaded with an 18" UXL would be best.

Just depends on your wants. Some people prefer the horn subs and others prefer ported/sealed. F3 at 25hz is not hard to come by with 1700 dollars. Lots of speakers fit in that mold. Have you had a look at Ricci's website? Data-Bass

http://www.data-bass.com/systems
If not take a look at what some of the DIY systems can provide you outside in the open. Inside these subwoofers will provide even better below 30hz.

 

[McFinkle]

Thanks for the reply! Unfortunately GHorns are probably out of the picture as the driver is ~$900. I'm hoping to build multiple cabinets with my budget. Outside measurements are definitely important as this setup will see use outside.

 

[chrapladm]

The UXL is not $900. You are looking at the Ultra. The UXL is almost half the price.

 

[McFinkle]

Oh yes, the UXL's are quite a bit cheaper. I think the really low extension of the GHorn would be wasted. I don't need anything much under 25 Hz.

 

[Mike P.]

Does $1700 include the amps?

 

[McFinkle]

Does $1700 include the amps?

No, just everything for the subs themselves. So drivers and wood mostly.

 

[Mike P.]

I'll do some modelling when I get a chance in the next day or so.

 

[chrapladm]

Wait so we're only looking for 25hz, so that would put us into pro audio like TH such as the 6fold design or other designs that are targeted around 30hz but Hpassed at 25hz roughly. I was thinking 20hz.

The THT is plenty loud and VERY cheap. My first horned subwoofer and a very good start to horned subwoofers. IMO. It is a 25hz design. The Micro Wrecker is similar but has better low end response. For anything that goes down to 25hz and wanting 130db or so you will usually need four subwoofers. Unless you go with more powerful drivers and then you could get away with 2 cabinets. Such as the Othorn.

Then there is also the option of a large ported cabinet with pro audio 18's. You can port around 28hz or 25 depending on size for your F3.

 

[Mike P.]

The THT is plenty loud and VERY cheap

Any idea on what SPL it would produce in the 25 hz range?

 

[McFinkle]

I've looked at pro audio 18's a bit but to get sufficient output down to 25 Hz it takes some pretty expensive drivers which I can't afford. That's originally why the microwrecker caught my eye; it uses a $120 driver. The THT looks pretty promising. I'm a little bit confused about what driver would work best in it though. It seems most people go with the Dayton DVC. I'm a bit skeptical about its low 350 watt power handling. I can't find much about what other drivers would work.
Thanks for the great info so far!

 

[chrapladm]

I am trying to find the test. I believe it produced around 116db out side. But I cant find the thread. Also other pro audio horns are doing around [email protected] Then there is the monster Othorn at 125db at 25hz all outside.(5100)

So indoors would be a tad more.

THT I believe did about 122db's indoors. I dont remember the frequency. But that was with about 300watts or very close to that. MW will take about 1000watts and does get a bit louder. The designer would no the thermal limits and spl specs. I am sure I have it some where in my emails, I will have a look.

But while the Othorn needs a 21" driver there are other pro audio drivers that work in that enclosure. Have you ever heard 120dbs at 25hz before? Or 125 at 30hz?

Best value I can see is using the UXL in s ported cabinet. Your in Canada so getting one for less money should be easy. And even sealed the UXL is doing 113dbs at 25hz in 4.2cuft cabinet open field.

 

[McFinkle]

Would you be able to point me towards some pro audio horns that can do 120dB at 25Hz? I think I may just need to buckle down and learn how to properly use Hornresp to design my own horn that will do exactly what I want. Unless of course someone would like to help me

 

[chrapladm]

The Othorn with the TC Sound 5100 driver can do 125db at 25hz outside.
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems&col=4&type=0&sort=desc&mfr=-1

What do you need this for?

 

[McFinkle]

I'll need this for outdoor EDM and rap stuff. I've checked out the Othorn but the driver being so expensive is a bit of an issue.. The cheapest driver is the 18Sound 18W1000 at $300. I'm not sure how it will perform though.

 

[chrapladm]

Sure you need 25hz?

If you do then build a Microwrecker(MW) TH. It is a tapped horn design that needs a Hpass at 17hz but only uses an Alpine Type S 15" You can find those for around 99-150 dollars each. BUY for of them and slowly build your horns. Then do some damage.

Ricci designed the Othorn and Gjallerhorn and the whole Data-bass website is his doing. Ricci likes to maximize space by using the baddest driver he can fit into a cabinet. The MW is built using a cheaper driver but you need more cabinets.

I will be building a few TH's for my next build later this year which will be for music. I havent decided yet how low I want to go though. There are several designs out that use 12's, 18's and others that are good to 30hz. And even a few good down lower. Its just a matter of picking how ow you want and how loud. Then make as many cabinets as needed. Some people like to only have a few cabinets and spend more on the driver. The bad thing is that you also need a much bigger amp also.

With using cheaper drivers and more cabinets you can use a less powerful amp for the same SPL or the same high powered amp and have more SPL.

 

[McFinkle]

I'm definitely leaning toward the MW. It seems to have 5-10 Hz more extension that I need though which might be making it unnecessarily large. If I change my goal to flat to 30 Hz how many more options does that open up? How much space or money can I save giving up that extra 5 Hz? You mentioned there being a lot of designs centered around 30 Hz or so, would you mind digging those up?
Cheers :help:

 

[chrapladm]

There are LOTS of designs centered around 45hz, 40hz, 35hz and 30hz. All those designs require four cabinets.

I will dig them up for sure. The MW can be hpassed higher if need be. It is roughly 48x36x24" Roughly. Slightly smaller in a few dimensions but only uses a single 15".

I am going to be building either Xoc1's design of the flat to 30hz build or the flat to 35hz sub. The flat to 35hz is almost identical to the TH18 from Danley.

Here was a short comparison on the Xoc1's design for 30hz.

Box
Freq ______30_____ 35_____ 40_____ 55_____ 65_____ 80_____ Hz

Xoc1.cm: _126.5___ 127___ 126.5__ 126.5___ 127____ 127_____ dB
Xoc1.m: __125.8___ 129.2__ 130.1__ 130.1___ 130____ 130
eps.sm: __124.7___ 127.2__ 127.7__ 127.6___ 127.6___ 127.8

Those were simulations. I believe they were using the BC SW115. I will have to go back and look. Old thread on Flat to 30hz on DIYaudio. There is also the other thread that is flat to 35hz. You can use the 18 Sound LW2400 woofer which I will be using......I think. When looking at the comparisoon of SPL if you design for 35hz it smashes everything from 35hz and up. The 30hz has more extenion but loses out above 38hz roughly I believe.

So for me its a matter of how low do you REALLY want to go. MW will get there but you need more cabinets. BUT maybe plywood is cheap for you. For me plywood is about the price for an additional cabinet. SO thats why it is tricky for me to go with the cheaper speaker verse more expensive.

the more expensive driver which costs double does not offer double SPL as compared to a single cheap woofer cabinet. So 2 cabinets no matter what will provide more SPL using cheap drivers than one uber expensive driver. BUT for me I might only need the SPL of the more expensive driver. AND with the additional expense of another cabinet and driver it really pushes a budget for me.

BUT I live in OZ. SO its cheaper for others in the USA.

SO how many cabinets do you want to lug around?

 

[McFinkle]

Luckily where I'm from (Western Canada) plywood is pretty cheap. Around $25 for a sheet that is good enough to build speakers out of. I will be good lugging around 4 cabinets I think. As long as they're not too much larger than 20 (~575 liters) cubic feet each.

 

[chrapladm]

All the designs I have looked at are about 470-550l. The Othorn is 510l. Then there is a 12" Lab sub design that is good for about 35hz that is 280l.

That is a response from a 6fold design. Here is another from the same thread showing what 4cabinets can do.

Just some ideas.

And here is another design using four cabinets that make it flat to 35hz. And here you can see the Xoc1 I mentioned before using the LW2400 vs SW115. Four cabs verse four cabs.

I want the extension for my own wants but these cabinets are not small. SO its mainly up to you. But as you can see the lower you go the less spl you can obtain from the same speaker.