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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I think my heads near bursting at this point. I probably have 10 hours of solid reading time at avs DIY screen section reading every rendition of maxxmud, silver fire, blackflame, light fusion ect. 2 hours ago I was pricing 8x4 mirrors for light fusion! Imagine my disappointment when I've basically learned it's all bullocks. Fishy posts, google searched deleted threads, and lack of scientific data lead me here which was the nail in the coffin.

So what now, I still need some help planning the correct projector screen combo and I'm hoping to get some more solid help here, because I do know I want to DIY the screen!

My basic room conditions. It's a living room with a total open design that opens into the kitchen. Apartment with off white walls that can't be changed. A big honking huge window that can and is draped to nail off most it's light in the day when needed. No ceiling lights in the living room. One fluorescent light in kitchen about 15' away from the closest edge of my prospective screen.

My viewing conditions:
40% dark time (ambient light from white walls)
30% dim dark light (single kitchen fluorescent or some other light in the house, never directly hitting screen)
30% ambient lit room. As in a regularly lit daytime room with windows open but not overtly over the top lit like I'm running every light in the house on.

I know I need to get some kind of gray tint screen to help combat the ambient light times.

My projector thoughts. Benqw6000. Reasons, 800-1000 lumens in best calibrated picture modes to spank the ambient light and light the outa a gray screen. Also, it's a $2500+ projector that seems to be everywhere for under 1500 lately which seems like a steal. Other contenders... Anything under 1500, likely epson 8350, used 8500/8700ub, I see a new pt-ar-100 just hit that has impressive max lumens plus 50,00:1. Waiting to see it's first review as it just released.

My goal, best ambient light performance, best "perceived" contrast I can get (since apparently silver fire light fusion isn't the magic I hoped it would be lol). If you all agree high lumen output like a Benq w6000 is a good idea with my ambient light situation then helping the blacks is a big deal (since it's not quite in the 8700ub blacks category).

My screen would ideally be 100-120 diagonal. Projected directly from the back wall on a mounted shelf 17 feet wall to wall. Viewed from a couch directly under the projector against The same wall.

If I understand correctly my options seem to be
Black widow
Cream and sugar ultra
Elektra
"x" or "y" laminate color
Something in development I haven't seen

Pushing around 25 fls to 35fls depending on screen size. (if a benqw6000)

DIY experience. I'm a remodel contractor with near every tool necessary to output professional level cabinetry, Welding, and fully set to spray hvlp.

Other random questions. I'm under the impression dlp is more prone to introducing image noise or grain (like those super small fuzzies you see close up on a screen). I've even seen it just flat out as a fault of some bluerays filming (best buy Sony 30aes 3d projector on a gray fire hawk). A particular blue ray and that noise introduced. The animated movie was clear as a whistle.
ARE there are screen types, notably DIY, that could help combat that noise to make it "smooth" looking.

What do you recommend for my situation with the Benq, or my situation with a different rig altogether if you think it better.
I sincerely appreciate the help!
 

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Welcome to HTS! :wave: I'd like to congratulate you for having enough sense to research unfounded claims and realize that they are what they are... bunk! Not enough folks do this.

I think that the BenQ W6000 would be an excellent choice for your setup. I'd state the reasons but you already have. :D

There are quite a few things that you can try. First off would be Black Widow™. Another would be Elektra™ N8. But for starters you may just want to get an OTS neutral gray in those ranges. Harp knows this better than I do and I'm certain he can point you at a Glidden color that would be easy to get at just about any paint store. Off the top of my head you could get a match of Dunn Edwards DE1080 Dusky which comes in at 187 189 187. But I'd wait for Harp to chime in, he's literally a Rolodex for this kind of info!

You'll need to consider finish as well. Normally we recommend a flat enamel or matte finish. But unfortunately, finish can vary from one brand to the next. If you go with Valspar, I'd recommend either the Ultra Premium in flat enamel or the Signature line in flat enamel. If you're going to go with a different paint such as Sherwin Williams, Harp again knows their finishes better than I.

As for the dlp and noise, I have been a dlp user from the start and I have never had any issues seeing any noise from the projector. And at 17' back, I'd doubt you would either. There are quite a few W6000 owners here though. You may want to ask them here. :T

Again, welcome to the Home Theater Shack!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Well here's a question, at what point is dark gray to dark?

In example. I saw a few new test panels SF has done. Typical is like a 1.0-3.0(colorant darkness amount). They had panels 8.0-12.0. How that works out on the n1-n10 who knows. Point being that they actually did incredible when compared against one another for ambient light. The problem is A.) they were only comparing against each other so who know how other colors or brights are being crushed in relation to a lighter or white screen, especially when the lights are off since they didn't show that. B.) I even noticed there seemed to be a blue push? Maybe the bright white on dark gray makes for a bluish tint?

So how does that work? Is there a point where with a very bright projector like a w6000 pumping out 36 fls 100in diagonal you can go even darker than say a BW? Because my understanding is that 36fls in a dark environment is going to be so bright your going to fatigue from it? Though I also know plasma screens do 40-50fls and that doesn't fatigue so another confusing subject to me.
 

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So I think my heads near bursting at this point. I probably have 10 hours of solid reading time at avs DIY screen section reading every rendition of maxxmud, silver fire, blackflame, light fusion ect. 2 hours ago I was pricing 8x4 mirrors for light fusion! Imagine my disappointment when I've basically learned it's all bullocks. Fishy posts, google searched deleted threads, and lack of scientific data lead me here which was the nail in the coffin.
Another hearty welcome to HTS Cazten. I'm glad you discovered the truth about the mica-heavy mixes promulgated by some at AVS DIY Screens and didn't spend several hundred dollars making one of the "light fusion" screens they seem to be advocating again.

So what now, I still need some help planning the correct projector screen combo and I'm hoping to get some more solid help here, because I do know I want to DIY the screen!
One of the really nice things about a DIY screen is that you can adjust the performance of it to suite your needs (within reason). :T

My basic room conditions. It's a living room with a total open design that opens into the kitchen. Apartment with off white walls that can't be changed. A big honking huge window that can and is draped to nail off most it's light in the day when needed. No ceiling lights in the living room. One fluorescent light in kitchen about 15' away from the closest edge of my prospective screen.

My viewing conditions:
40% dark time (ambient light from white walls)
30% dim dark light (single kitchen fluorescent or some other light in the house, never directly hitting screen)
30% ambient lit room. As in a regularly lit daytime room with windows open but not overtly over the top lit like I'm running every light in the house on.

I know I need to get some kind of gray tint screen to help combat the ambient light times.
In general, the more ambient light you have hitting the screen the darker gray you will need; but be aware that nothing increases image quality better than not having the ambient light in the first place. We live in the real world here and a gray screen can only help so much.

The reason why a gray screen increases perceived contrast over a white screen is that projectors can't produce and shoot black. The black areas in an image are those where a projector isn't projecting any light at all (if you have a PJ that is capable of this, many aren't). In a totally dark room with dark colored room surfaces even a white screen can produce great blacks with a PJ that also has great black-levels, but add even the light from a single candle hitting the screen and those blacks start getting visibly lighter. A gray screen simply absorbs that ambient light to restore black blacks. It will also absorb PJ light as well as ambient light, but if we add a bit of reflectivity to the screen we can compensate for this lose to an extent without introducing hot spotting or graininess/shimmering of the image. Also, when projecting white onto a gray screen (white cars, snow etc.) there is an optical illusion of sorts that happens and our brains will tell our eyes that we are truly seeing something white when it really is a gray. This is one reason you can't judge the gray shade of a screen, or tell a white screen from a gray screen, by looking at a photo of the screen in use.

My projector thoughts. Benqw6000. Reasons, 800-1000 lumens in best calibrated picture modes to spank the ambient light and light the outa a gray screen. Also, it's a $2500+ projector that seems to be everywhere for under 1500 lately which seems like a steal. Other contenders... Anything under 1500, likely epson 8350, used 8500/8700ub, I see a new pt-ar-100 just hit that has impressive max lumens plus 50,00:1. Waiting to see it's first review as it just released.

My goal, best ambient light performance, best "perceived" contrast I can get (since apparently silver fire light fusion isn't the magic I hoped it would be lol). If you all agree high lumen output like a Benq w6000 is a good idea with my ambient light situation then helping the blacks is a big deal (since it's not quite in the 8700ub blacks category).
Don't judge a PJ by it's factory specs alone especially the contrast numbers. Here is a good article about image contrast in the real world. And yeah, SF light fusion is pretty much bombastic hyperbole, it simply won't work the way they describe it since physics won't allow it.

My screen would ideally be 100-120 diagonal. Projected directly from the back wall on a mounted shelf 17 feet wall to wall. Viewed from a couch directly under the projector against The same wall.

If I understand correctly my options seem to be
Black widow
Cream and sugar ultra
Elektra
"x" or "y" laminate color
Something in development I haven't seen

Pushing around 25 fls to 35fls depending on screen size. (if a benqw6000)
Even with a 120" screen you are getting enough lumens out of the W6000 to use a very dark screen. Even with a screen with only a 0.7 gain you would be getting 17 fL (16 fL is the recommended brightness for normal viewing); and even allowing for lamp-aging lumen drop you would still be around 12 fL at lamp end-of-life brightness (both Mech and I enjoy watching a BW™ screen when hit with only 12 fL).

With PJ's as bright as the W6000 you really don't need to use a reflectively-enhanced mix such as the ones you listed. A plain old "regular" OTS (off the shelf) neutral gray paint would probably work fine. We have not measured the gain of such paints (I think Mech did one), but we plan to in the future. I'll talk about shades of gray later in this post.

DIY experience. I'm a remodel contractor with near every tool necessary to output professional level cabinetry, Welding, and fully set to spray hvlp.
Cool! It sounds like you can build about anything you can dream up. :T When you build your screen it would be really great if you could take and post some photos along the way to aid folks in the future who also desire to build a similar screen.

Other random questions. I'm under the impression dlp is more prone to introducing image noise or grain (like those super small fuzzies you see close up on a screen). I've even seen it just flat out as a fault of some bluerays filming (best buy Sony 30aes 3d projector on a gray fire hawk). A particular blue ray and that noise introduced. The animated movie was clear as a whistle.
ARE there are screen types, notably DIY, that could help combat that noise to make it "smooth" looking.
The reviews I have read on the W6000 haven't mentioned anything like this so I don't know what to tell you. If you would need to "smooth" the image a bit (which is in reality blurring it) you could add water-based polyurethane to the paint to make it translucent. I'm sure you've read about this elsewhere.:whistling: The problem is that adding poly to paint will throw off the neutrality from the start and then the poly in the mix will continue to yellow as the screen ages.

Well here's a question, at what point is dark gray to dark?
This is actually a very subjective and personal thing. As I mentioned earlier both Mech and I find a BW™ screen being hit with 12 measured fL to look plenty bright (which works out being a bit under 11 fL) , but other folks have found it too dark. Is finding the best shade of gray for you something you would be interested in experimenting with or do you just want to paint your screen once and be done with it?

In example. I saw a few new test panels SF has done. Typical is like a 1.0-3.0(colorant darkness amount). They had panels 8.0-12.0. How that works out on the n1-n10 who knows. Point being that they actually did incredible when compared against one another for ambient light. The problem is A.) they were only comparing against each other so who know how other colors or brights are being crushed in relation to a lighter or white screen, especially when the lights are off since they didn't show that. B.) I even noticed there seemed to be a blue push? Maybe the bright white on dark gray makes for a bluish tint?

So how does that work? Is there a point where with a very bright projector like a w6000 pumping out 36 fls 100in diagonal you can go even darker than say a BW? Because my understanding is that 36fls in a dark environment is going to be so bright your going to fatigue from it? Though I also know plasma screens do 40-50fls and that doesn't fatigue so another confusing subject to me.
No one knows the actual gray shades of the SF variants now because no color testing (let alone gain testing) has been done on them yet. We will probably do some one day, but right now the SF v2.5 formulae keep changing almost like the weather. They are on their second or third formulae change now I believe. We have nothing against changing a formula to make it better, but all these changes in so short a time basically means that everyone making a SF screen is a beta tester and doesn't know it. :doh:

If you noticed, they haven't posted any formulae for the darker SF variants, and they haven't shown any photos from which truly meaningful information can be gathered. To get white-levels anywhere near a white screen the viewing cone of these mixes would be small. I believe they have stated that they can out-perform all the commercial Black Diamond screens except for the new one that has a gain over 2.0 (sorry, I forget the actual number). I simply have to chuckle at that. :heehee: There is no way a paint mix (no matter how complicated) can perform the same, or better, than an engineered screen such as the Black Diamond. At best, it would also have the same viewing cone and color-shifting problem those screens have.

SF mixes have traditionally pushed blue or blue-green; but the formulae have changed not only in the amounts of paint used, but also in the types of paints. From the photos I have seen of newly completed SF screens it seems they still tend to push blue, but it's hard to tell from a photo.

Again, this is a very subjective thing, but my guess is that you could go darker than a BW™ screen using an OTS gray paint.

As to how bright your image can get before you start getting eye strain is an unanswered question. If you find any source of info on that please let us know. :T The recommended range of brightness for a projected image in a dark room is between 12fL and 16fL, but I forget who issued that standard.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yes definitely judging pjs on specs alone. Contrast, with the advent of dynamic iris is just all over the place now. In regards to the possibly of a pt ar100 I figure with 2800 lumens even best most is probably near or around the Benq at 1000 (which I think I confirmed at projector central just doing a review the first time today or yesterday?) and 50,000 to one at least pointed in a positive direction lol. But who knows. I'll wait for a good right up from Art at projector reviews.

N regards to the reflective mixes I listed, my impression is the the reflective particles are helping keep the white/bright up. Th was an obvious result when looking at mechs pictures comparisons when he's measuring things. BW typically kept near same brightness but with better blacks. Are you saying with a high output pj like the Benq this added benefit is unnecessary? Would it be even potentially counter productive? BW was at the top of my list previously.

In regards to personal brightness preference. I gotta say my brothers samsung 55in led is pretty tits :D. I like a bright POPPing image. My preference, I'll drive my lumens up to the max point I can that's just short of making movie watching uncomfortable. Added to that, I want to make sure I can hit it hard enough for day time watching. Pure dark optimal viewing is not something I can soley calibrate on so I have to find that compromise. Lumens can always be lower, Eco mode, ect for the dark.

I'd love to make 10 screens and try them all. But the reality is I'm going on a budget, my gf already doesnt like this projector mumbo jumbo, and having a new screen every weekend is going to make a problem with that lol. I wanna try my best shot first. Down the line I'll start bringing more screen experiments in.

Seeing as it's cheap I'll likely try BW vs a darker gray and just sample compare it, then do it for real. What would be the recommendations for darker than BW, within the limitations of that Benq, likely 100 to 110 diagonal? And whT options do those OTC mix give me (example I saw a thread somewhere here putting clear coats over grays that had mild gain boost w/o hotspotting.
 

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You should add the new Epson 3010 to your list. Same price range, over 1400 lumens in best mode, 1925 lumens in Dynamic mode which is great for sports. I'm not saying the BenQ isn't great, it is. But you mentioned a number of PJs you were looking at and it seems you might want to take a look at the 3010 with those other contenders.

As far as paint choice, you're already getting most excellent advice!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thought about the 3010. The 3d is cool, and who knows I might regret it but I'm going to jump for pure PQ in my price range. My understanding is besides lumens the 3010 isn't yet an equal match for the 8350, and then Benq is a whole league above that at least.
I think about what I tend to watch and it al Netflix or downloaded hi def stuff streamed via Dlna to my blue ray player. My guess is itl be a year or two at least before 3d is really rampant and everywhere, and maybe at that point il sell the Benq for a 3d pj that's just as good but cheaper
 

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N regards to the reflective mixes I listed, my impression is the the reflective particles are helping keep the white/bright up. Th was an obvious result when looking at mechs pictures comparisons when he's measuring things. BW typically kept near same brightness but with better blacks. Are you saying with a high output pj like the Benq this added benefit is unnecessary? Would it be even potentially counter productive? BW was at the top of my list previously.
The brighter the image is on a screen with reflective elements in it the more likely those elements themselves will be seen in the image. Some people that have a brighter image (I think they were above 20 fL, but that is just a guess) and were watching HD material said they could see a bit of graininess in the image on a BW™ screen. I only have an 800x600 PJ and I have never seen that problem no matter how bright I have made the image (up to at least 80 fL IIRC - I can move my PJ anywhere from several feet from the screen to 24 feet). Mech and Bill have HD PJ's and they have never seen it either, but that doesn't mean others aren't. Since you have read posts at AVS you may have seen the reports of many of the new SF screens having problems with "graininess" in light areas of the image. This is caused by there being too much mica in the mix for the amount of opaque paint to control the elements refractive properties. All that clear poly in the mix just makes the matter worse.

In regards to personal brightness preference. I gotta say my brothers samsung 55in led is pretty tits :D. I like a bright POPPing image. My preference, I'll drive my lumens up to the max point I can that's just short of making movie watching uncomfortable. Added to that, I want to make sure I can hit it hard enough for day time watching. Pure dark optimal viewing is not something I can soley calibrate on so I have to find that compromise. Lumens can always be lower, Eco mode, ect for the dark.
It sounds like you like a really bright image. I would suggest you stay with a screen mix that doesn't have any reflective particulates in it just to be on the safe side.

I'd love to make 10 screens and try them all. But the reality is I'm going on a budget, my gf already doesnt like this projector mumbo jumbo, and having a new screen every weekend is going to make a problem with that lol. I wanna try my best shot first. Down the line I'll start bringing more screen experiments in.
I understand. ;)

Seeing as it's cheap I'll likely try BW vs a darker gray and just sample compare it, then do it for real. What would be the recommendations for darker than BW, within the limitations of that Benq, likely 100 to 110 diagonal?
It would be nice if you could do a BW™ test and see if you see any graininess in your image. An OTS paint color that matches BW™ is Glidden 'Veil'. Most paint stores should have that color in their color databases (it would be under "Glidden Master Palette"). I know Lowe's stores can make it. I recommend Valspar Ultra Premium interior latex paint in eggshell finish. For darker grays than 'Veil' I'll have to do a bit of research and get back to you.

And whT options do those OTC mix give me (example I saw a thread somewhere here putting clear coats over grays that had mild gain boost w/o hotspotting.
OTS paints give you the option of custom mixing your own gray level and/or your own gloss level by buying two different shades of gray (in perhaps two different gloss levels) and mixing them until you get what you want. With OTS paints there is nothing in the paint to show any graininess or other artifacting.

We don't recommend trying to adjust gain by applying a clear top coat. All the polyurethanes we have tried have added yellow to the screen which just gets worse as the screen ages. If you need to adjust gloss level do so by going from a flat to an eggshell finish or by mixing two different gloss level paints together.

One final note on gloss levels; there is no industry standard and one brands eggshell may be another brands satin or semi-gloss. We have found that both Valspar Ultra Premium eggshell (sold at Lowe's) and Behr Ultra Premium eggshell are about the same and do not hot spot. Another factoid is that even thought the same gloss level paint is used a darker paint may hot spot while a light or white won't. This is due to the darker colors having greater perceived contrast between on-axis and off-axis reflections. Right now I don't know if a darker gray such as N6 would hot spot in the above eggshell finish paints or not, it might be close.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Heres a thought.

cream and sugar is known to be less relfective/sparkly than BW yes? In the interest of using materials all local, create a mix that theoretically gets less sparkly the darker i make it (n6 diluting), and save myself alotta money in random paint samples and extra mixes..

Do a Cream n Sugar mix 9.2, Electra 8.0, get Elektra darker to 7.5/7.0 (if it exists?), and use the n6 Elektra tinter (I know its supposedly neutral gray, is this a viable option?)

That would give me a range of n6-n9.2. Lots to try, cheap, all local... Hinging on the obstacle that it would work :D

Assuming it did, would a BW7.5 be comparable to Elektra 7.5ish?
 

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Gliden viel is a n7 isn't it? BW is n7.5?
My can measured N7.5 which puts it is BW™ territory.

Heres a thought.

cream and sugar is known to be less relfective/sparkly than BW yes?
The original C&S™ was very close to BW™ when it came to sparkle (the size of the reflective flakes in the paint), but the new C&S™ Ultra is made with a silver paint that has a much smaller flake size (one of these days I'll figure out how to photograph this).

In the interest of using materials all local, create a mix that theoretically gets less sparkly the darker i make it (n6 diluting), and save myself alotta money in random paint samples and extra mixes..

Do a Cream n Sugar mix 9.2, Electra 8.0, get Elektra darker to 7.5/7.0 (if it exists?), and use the n6 Elektra tinter (I know its supposedly neutral gray, is this a viable option?)

That would give me a range of n6-n9.2. Lots to try, cheap, all local... Hinging on the obstacle that it would work :D
For making C&S™ Ultra you could get the base paint from Home Depot (as well as the N6 for making Elektra™), but I don't know exactly where you could get the Liquitex BASICS Silver needed for C&S™ Ultra. Any store that sells artist paints should either have it or be able to order it for you, but unless you get it discounted it is fairly expensive. In the States we can routinely get it from the chain craft stores Michael's and A.C. Moore for 40% off retail.

I really need to get back into the lab and experiment more with making C&S™ Ultra darker. Since the BASICS Silver isn't as reflective as the older silver paint used in C&S™ a N6 paint may not be needed to dilute the reflective particles to prevent sparkling. In the interim, your theory is sound. I would guess that a 1:1 mix of C&S™ Ultra and N6 paints would be about N7.

Assuming it did, would a BW7.5 be comparable to Elektra 7.5ish?
This is something we meant to test, but never got around to it. :blush: My guess right now is that BW™ would have more gain than an Elektra™ mix made to the same shade simply due to the greater reflectivity of the aluminum paint in BW™.

I will make a concerted effort to get back into the lab and sort some of this stuff out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hmm the liquidex doesn't look so bad? About as much or less than what home depot would charge me for a quart of any random color to try. The cream n sugar having less gain theoretically works in my favor then as I'm not really needing it.maybe I'll give it a shy regardless, can't measure it like you can, but worst case I can make the known 8.0 mix and just make the next darker lol. It's advantageous that regardless of mixing proportions it stays a neutral gray so I technically can't go wrong?

And the n6 mixing component, I can use that alone as a basic n6 gray right? As it's a neutral gray?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Edit: so I just noticed elektra was made with the old cream n sugar. Does that mean the mixes for the 8.0 elektra are inaccurate with the new formula?
 

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Hmm the liquidex doesn't look so bad? About as much or less than what home depot would charge me for a quart of any random color to try.
Cool. Here in the States it's about $5 per 4 oz. tube undiscounted which puts it at $40 a quart. Paint from Lowe's or Home Depot is about $15 a quart.

The cream n sugar having less gain theoretically works in my favor then as I'm not really needing it.maybe I'll give it a shy regardless, can't measure it like you can, but worst case I can make the known 8.0 mix and just make the next darker lol. It's advantageous that regardless of mixing proportions it stays a neutral gray so I technically can't go wrong?
Correct, both C&S™ Ultra and the N6 shade-adjuster are neutral so any combination of them will be neutral. :T

And the n6 mixing component, I can use that alone as a basic n6 gray right? As it's a neutral gray?
Yes.
 
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