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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all

I'm going to build a sub using either a 12 or 15 inch driver. And intend to build a second matching sub later.
They will be in a 2ch system for 99% music use, but i like DEEP, tight bass.
My speakers are ATC PA-65's. They don't have much bass below 30hz, so the sub will be for 30hz and down. Ideally to 10hz.

I have a Chevin Research A1000 amp. Its 600watts x 2 @ 4ohms, or 1200watts bridged @ 8ohms.

I'm looking for driver suggestions that are dual 4ohm so i can run one sub off this amp now @ 8ohm(or 1 ch per coil?, then upgrade the amp to something bigger and run the subs at 2ohm when i build the second sub.

I plan to build a fairly small curved stacked ply enclosure of 1.5 - 3 cubic feet depending on driver.

I used to own a JL Audio f112, so my aim is to equal or better the f112's performance. Quality and extension are more important than max SPL, but it needs to have some guts too.

Any suggestions on drive unit and Eq would be greatly appreciated.

Is the Precision power PC.15 driver any good?
Or the IDMAX 12?

Cheers
Matt :T
 

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What music do you listen to?

Most music doesn't go below 25hz but if you are wanting 10hz its just a matter of designing a HT sub with dual 12's at least. When you start to go below 20hz you need displacement. So bigger drivers or more smaller ones.

I have seen some builds with dual twelves that looked very nice and can get down to 10hz with enough SPL to say they can reach 10hz.But when needing 10hz output with authority you will also need plenty of amp headroom.

SO if only wanting to use a single driver i would suggest using the biggest driver you can afford. So a 15 to start.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the reply

I listen to all types of music really, but mainly electronic like Aphex twin, photek, Groove Armada and Tech master PEB. Anything with deep bass also.

The F112 would play a 16hz tone in-room, and could just about play the lowest notes on some of my cd's, so I'd be happy with that performance, but preferably more output at the lowest frequencies.

The amp I have will just be to do for a while, then I'll buy a big amp and build a second sub.

So if I built a dual opposed 12" sub, or single 15" are my best options? I can't accommodate anything bigger really.

Is there any drive units you would recommend?

Cheers
Matt
 

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Well most of your music is stuff I have listened to also so thats makes things easier.

What is your budget?

You could go with 1500 for total budget of speakers or you could go with 500. These are just speaker budgets and you will be amp limited also. Meaning you wont have enough power to hurt the speakers.

You could also build a pair of sealed subs using the Dayton 390 for a very small budget of around 350. That being said I will first just wait to hear what you would like for a budget and size of cabinets you are will to accommodate?

After reading a review that the highest SPL for the Fathom was 120db @50hz I think you could do better with less money but its just a matter of what you want to spend.

Four 12's, from most subwoofers manufacturers will smash a pair of 13.5" drivers.
Two 15's will have less output than four 12's but still will beat out the Fathom. Now the list does narrow down on which 15's you can use a still stay ahead of he Fathom. But any descent 15" with around 16mm or so of Xmax will win. There are a few variables in there also but this is just a generalization.

Fi
Sundown
To the many from PE:
http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?srchExt=CAT&srchCat=487
Dayton
TC Sounds
Peerless
CSS

Dont forget you will also need some sort of EQ such as a MiniDsp.
http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/2-x-in-4-x-out

SO maybe around 700 for starters to out due the JL and higher to have LOTS of headroom. But remember also you wont be able to get the most from the subs until you upgrade your current amplifier also down the road.
 

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I don't have any personal experience but there was a comparison between the f112 and the old tc2k from tc sounds. The new model would be the lms-r 15. I believe it models well in a seal 3.2 cubic foot enclosure.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Well most of your music is stuff I have listened to also so thats makes things easier.

What is your budget?

You could go with 1500 for total budget of speakers or you could go with 500. These are just speaker budgets and you will be amp limited also. Meaning you wont have enough power to hurt the speakers.

You could also build a pair of sealed subs using the Dayton 390 for a very small budget of around 350. That being said I will first just wait to hear what you would like for a budget and size of cabinets you are will to accommodate?

After reading a review that the highest SPL for the Fathom was 120db @50hz I think you could do better with less money but its just a matter of what you want to spend.

Four 12's, from most subwoofers manufacturers will smash a pair of 13.5" drivers.
Two 15's will have less output than four 12's but still will beat out the Fathom. Now the list does narrow down on which 15's you can use a still stay ahead of he Fathom. But any descent 15" with around 16mm or so of Xmax will win. There are a few variables in there also but this is just a generalization.

Fi
Sundown
To the many from PE:
http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?srchExt=CAT&srchCat=487
Dayton
TC Sounds
Peerless
CSS

Dont forget you will also need some sort of EQ such as a MiniDsp.
http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/2-x-in-4-x-out

SO maybe around 700 for starters to out due the JL and higher to have LOTS of headroom. But remember also you wont be able to get the most from the subs until you upgrade your current amplifier also down the road.
I'm living in Ireland, so very little available here. I will have to buy the sub from the UK or USA. Shipping will be expensive, and duty from America on top of that, but subs are a lot cheaper over there.
A budget of around £400 or $600 for a driver including shipping etc i suppose, but a little more if necessary.

The Precision power PC.15 i mentioned seems to be about $190 + shipping and duty from America.
Or £250 + shipping from England.
I like the look of the Tc sounds LMS-R, but would need to work out shipping and duty.
I think a 15" driver is the way to go. My speakers have 15" bass drivers too.

Once ive bought the bass driver, i can work on the cabinet design. Then sort out Eq while i'm building the sub.
So many choices.

Cheers
Matt
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I don't have any personal experience but there was a comparison between the f112 and the old tc2k from tc sounds. The new model would be the lms-r 15. I believe it models well in a seal 3.2 cubic foot enclosure.
Thanks, i think i saw that comparison before. The Tc sounds sub did very well :)
 

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The LMSR is a very nice subwoofer. You could also try other car brands and see what they cost if the LMSR becomes to pricey.

Fi SSD or Q
Sundown Night series
Xcon

Fi you can order directly from and a lot of car audio might be available in your area. Alpine Type R are also pretty good. Not many are going to have the extension of the LMSR but with the same price a few will come close.
 

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Thanks, i think i saw that comparison before. The Tc sounds sub did very well :)
The JL won the upper range competition and lost the extension battle. Obviously an LMSR would beat the 12w7(F112) You could also use the axis or LMS Ultra. Be aware there have been quality control issues recently with TC. Maybe you could just get the JL Audio 13w7 since sealed is your goal. This would certainly give you plenty. Remember extension is box size limited not driver limited because you can only get so much air out of a certain size box. If you really want deep performance you need IB, Ported, or Horn loading. That said I prefer sealed builds for their simplicity. Cut the hole brace it for a hurricane and call it a day.

I plan to just add TC epic's.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I had nearly made my mind up on an Fi Q15, but its dual 2ohm, so not ideal for my amp.
The LMS-R is also dual 2 ohm.
The amp isn't a permanent thing, but it could be 12 months or so, so a dual 4ohm sub would suit better so i can run it in series at 8ohms now, then in parallel at 2ohms with a bigger amp in the future.

I did see the Alpine swr-1542D. That looks like a nice driver. I was just unsure if it would provide the quality i'm after.

Cheers
Matt
 

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I did see the Alpine swr-1542D. That looks like a nice driver. I was just unsure if it would provide the quality i'm after.
Those Alpine drivers are some fine fine drivers. They're klippel optimized so you can rest assured you'll get excellent quallity.
 

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TC Epics cost around 169 from Partsexpress.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=293-650
The 13w7 I thought cost more than the LMSR. I could be wrong but I thought that subwoofer was around $700. And for that price I will gladly take four TC Sound Epics instead. LOL

And just as GranteedEV stated Alpine makes some very nice subwoofers.:T
 

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Sorry I forgot to respond to your earlier question.

Yes the IDMax simulates very well for a HT sub. The TC Epics are nice and need about 1000 watts per box if they are dual opposed in 3cuft sealed. The ID's in 3cuft with 1200 watts will match the Epics with 1000.

Now the Epics with 1000watts are at Xmax at 10hz. And the ID Max's can take another 1000 watts to reach Xmax at 10hz. SO with a single cabinet dual opposed Epics and 1000 watts your at their limit at 10hz. With the IDMax's you have room to grow(spl wise) when you get more power.

I have not built anything using the ID's in a long time so I dont know much about their new products. I am just going by simulation. I used to have their IDQ's and horns in my car from about 10 years ago. They were awesome.

But last I remember their products are all made in Taiwan I think so I am not sure on their quality anymore. They have some good reviews but a lot of people saying their not as good as the old stuff like I once had. Memory lane...Thanks..LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #16
GranteedEV said:
Those Alpine drivers are some fine fine drivers. They're klippel optimized so you can rest assured you'll get excellent quallity.
I've found a place in Ireland that sells these drivers, but I've a feeling they aren't stocked here, just ordered from somewhere when you place the order on the Internet.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
lsiberian said:
The JL won the upper range competition and lost the extension battle. Obviously an LMSR would beat the 12w7(F112) You could also use the axis or LMS Ultra. Be aware there have been quality control issues recently with TC. Maybe you could just get the JL Audio 13w7 since sealed is your goal. This would certainly give you plenty. Remember extension is box size limited not driver limited because you can only get so much air out of a certain size box. If you really want deep performance you need IB, Ported, or Horn loading. That said I prefer sealed builds for their simplicity. Cut the hole brace it for a hurricane and call it a day.

I plan to just add TC epic's.
I had thought about a 13w7, but they seem very expensive against the competition.

The TC epics look like very good value for money.

Cheers
Matt
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Dual opposed 12's with something like the epics would be nice.
I'll have to draw a few ideas. I want to make a curved cabinet from layers of plywood, so need to see if a single 15 or dual 12 would be easier to build.

Cheers
Matt
 

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Dual opposed would be more difficult on a curved cabinet. You could always just have two stacked subwoofers as in one driver above the other.

But a single good quality 15 will do more than a single 13.5" driver or the 12W7 in a small sealed cabinet.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
chrapladm said:
Dual opposed would be more difficult on a curved cabinet. You could always just have two stacked subwoofers as in one driver above the other.

But a single good quality 15 will do more than a single 13.5" driver or the 12W7 in a small sealed cabinet.
Thanks for the info on the IDMax subs.

I might just stick with the single 15" sub idea then. It sounds like it will do what I'm after, then adding a second one later will definitely be better.

I'll keep you posted.

Cheers
Matt
 
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