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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi all
i need advice what to buy/build

I can get those drivers ;
- Eminence LAB12C
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/LAB_12C.pdf
http://www.parts-express.com/eminence-lab-12c-high-power-12-subwoofer-speaker-driver-4-ohm--290-668

- Peerless XLS 10 / P830452
http://www.tymphany.com/files/XLS-P830452 Rev 1_1.pdf

- Peerless XXLS 12
(don't know which model)


what would be the best choice for music and HT sub ?
I have ICEpower500 module 500W/4Ohm
and Najda - WAF audio DSP

As I see Eminence recommend LAB12C in bas reflex that will go down to 30Hz (F3) for around 57L
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/LAB_12C_cab.pdf

And have see that people use XXLS in 50L closed.
I think that XLS10 would go into something like 35-40L. (XLS10 is the less cost one)

What build would you recommend for music and HT sub ? closed or bas reflex ?
would LAB12C be good as XXLS12 in closed application ?
or should LAB12C in bas reflex do for music and HT (people often write that thay mach more like closed boxes for sub's)

I can build something up to 60-70L (plan is to make it as coffee table, with down fire)

PS: I have small, anthony gallo due' for front loudspeakers (for HT use)...
http://www.anthonygallo.co.uk/pages/products-speakers-due.php


and this is how my room looks like...it's not that big...I have one big space, as kitchen is connected with living room...there is no wall in betwin...


for some reason I don't see picture...so I paste link...



any advice
thanks
Josip
 

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Hi Josip,

Of those 3 choices, for your circumstances, I would suggest the XXLS 12, sealed. It will go lower than the Lab12, both being capable of at least keeping up with your Gallos.
Make sure to post pics of your build and good luck whichever you choose.

cheers
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks AJ

what volume would you suggest for XXL12 ? around 50L ? maybe 60L ?

I try to simulate inside winisd but 'm not shore did I enter correct values (I have no XXLS12 in data base, so I input them by hand)...will try once more...tnx...

and will post my build ;)
 

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Normally, one ideally wants the tuning to be extremely low for HT and a transient perfect 0.5 Qtc for music, so assuming these are your goals, then ~119 L sealed. If small size is more important, then a ~74.32 L_0.577 Qtc would be my choice.

GM
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks JM

I have try to simulate XXLS in closed 50L and 65L
and LAB12C 50/60L just to get some idea about difference betwin those two drivers

- XXLS12_50L Qtc 0,757 / F3 - 44,4Hz / F6 - 33Hz

- XXLS12_65L Qtc 0,697 / F3 - 40,52Hz / F6 - 31Hz


- LAB12C_50L Qtc 0,64 / F3 - 45,8Hz / F6 - 37,4Hz

- LAB12C_60L Qtc 0,60 / F3 - 43Hz / F6 - 36,7 Hz


So the XXLS looks better :D

I will take a look about 75L as JM suggested.
The size does meter.

I have no experience with subwoofers.
Have made one 2.5/3 way loudspeakers and have struggle with bass response. I have SS 21W8555-01 in 42L with Qtc of 0.5 and have feeling that I'm mising bass...I could feel it....but could not hear it...
here is one picture how that come out...


have try Qtc of 0.7 (stuff some blocks inside to reduce volume) and could not notice some big difference...
have play a little with DSP to up lift lower frequencies.

But I believe that room and room placement plays a huge factor what we hear from loudspeakers.
So I will have to play some more.

I have read someplace, that my idea of building sub as coffee table is not a good idea ?
that, the ~midle of the room is the worst place to place subwoofer into room, as that way we will not take advantage of wall.

So first I will make some box just to see what to do and where to place sub.
my apartment is small as you can see, so sub placement and volume is important...I have to make it to blend into room.
 

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You’re welcome!

These are all fairly low Qt drivers, so not really designed to provide much bass output without corner and/or horn loading, so don’t expect a lot more just because the XXLS is a 12”.

Yes, the room dominates down low, so placement is critical to good bass response, ditto the listening position [Lp].

Nothing wrong with a coffee table sub, Altec was a pioneer in satellite/sub systems with the first being the LF1/LF2 coffee table [click images to enlarge]: http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/altec/catalogs/1982-home.htm

Yes, ‘box’ shaped rooms are ½ WL resonators, so the middle in all three planes is the 1st axial mode with a huge suck-out: http://www.mcsquared.com/modecalc.htm
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/waves/opecol.html

From these we see that speaker, Lp placement ideally needs to be at the room’s odd harmonics and that multiple distributed subs can be used to average out the room’s response: http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White Papers/multsubs.pdf

GM
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks GM
so, I should do a loot of reading ;)
but at the end it all comes down to experimenting :D

so, for start I will build some ~60L box, and start testing with different position...
if I get nice sound in front of soffa I will make it as coffee table
if not I will adopt it as something else...


the thing is that in Croatia is hard to find any drivers, I have to order somewhere from EU (Germany,UK...) and the prices is like 50% more expensive than in USA...and when I pay for shipping I could buy two drivers in USA for one in Croatia (EU)
lets say LAB12C is 174$ but in Croatia is 270$ used!
XXLS12 is 240$ and in EU is 350$ + 50$ shipping to Croatia (400$)...
So multiple subs won't do for me as I can't afford them :crying:

and I have to play safe...
what I buy I will have to stick with...
 

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There is a special run of LAB15 4ohm drivers on eBay for $210 US for two - sold direct from Eminence, and they have 100 or more left. They do well in small sealed enclosures. I bought two and should have them tomorrow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hi Doug
can you point me to some project with LAB15 ?
(subwoofer for music and HT)

I belive it will cost me 210 for drivers, another 100 for shiping costs and then 25% custom on 310$(I pay custom for drivers and shiping) (so total of around 380$)
 

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The lab15 4ohm only has an Fs of 34.4 so it might not be the best choice for ht use. 56 liters sealed or 85 liters ported tuned to 30 would be where it would work well for music. I'm not sure of any completed projects with it other than the bfm t60, which is a giant pa use horn sub.
 

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You’re welcome!

Again, I strongly urge you to put the sub at either 1st, 3rds or 5ths of the room’s length. Ditto the sofa at 3rds or 5ths. If you want a coffee table sub, then center the two at one of these two points. Subs behind or under the sofa are popular also.

Are there any 8”-18” [sub]woofer drivers available locally? If so, are specs available?

Understood, like me and vehicles, computers and any other expensive appliance, tool. Audio wise, I’ve had the same speaker components since 1969 and they are mid ‘50s units pulled from a cinema shutdown.

GM
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
GM
When you say 1, 3, 5ths of room lenght, what do you mean ?
my room is like 6.2m in lenght

so LAB15 is not a good choice /

Unfortinaly there is no local drivers to chose from...
I can't buy anything in Croatia...
but I have relatives in UK which will come my way in a 20days so I was thinking to buy it in UK.

Other solution is to order from
https://www.intertechnik.com / germany
http://www.europe-audio.com/

and pay like 35euro / 50$ for shiping

will read and look for dayton solutions...maybe there is something beter then xxls12
 

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Again, per the links WRT axial room modes being the same as an open pipe resonator, which has both even and odd order harmonics, with even order producing nulls and odd order, peaks. If the speaker and/or Lp is in a null, then so too will its output have a null and no amount of EQ/whatever is going to overcome it.

So….. the 1st mode is up against a wall, where the speakers normally will be, then a 3rd or 2/3rds away would be the Lp, ergo if 5ths ,then 1/5, 2/5, 3/5 away; or if a small room the Lp could be at the opposite wall.

If you prefer speakers well away from walls, then place them at the 1/3 or 1/5 and shift the LP as required.

Some folks will mix in some 7ths and 9ths, but this usually only works well in large rooms where there’s a decent physical gap for modes to develop.

Note that with a 6.2 m length, this is a ~344 m_sec/2/6.2 = ~28 Hz 1st axial mode, meaning there’s not much room gain available, so keeping the sub close by the Lp is a good plan.

If the XXLS is still as well made as the much older ones, then ‘better’ will be hard to find at a comparable price, but what you need is a similar spec driver with a higher Qts and lower Fs to get more bass down low.

In short, an IB driver, so needs to be ‘better’ in this way.

GM
 

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I have no experience with subwoofers.
Have made one 2.5/3 way loudspeakers and have struggle with bass response. I have SS 21W8555-01 in 42L with Qtc of 0.5 and have feeling that I'm mising bass...I could feel it....but could not hear it...
here is one picture how that come out...
That's absolutely gorgeous! You have some amazing woodworking skills.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
GM thanks for replay...
I will try to read with undertanding but I have to find some free time for it...


Will get back once I figure it out :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
That's absolutely gorgeous! You have some amazing woodworking skills.
Thanks Jim...
those are my first loudspeakers and I allways say, "If I could build it, everyone can"

I was naive at start, but now I understand that building loudspeaker is the hardest part od diyaudio.

(Ps...sorry for bad english,am on mobile without spellcheck ;) )
 

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those are my first loudspeakers and I allways say, "If I could build it, everyone can"
That's not true I'm afraid, at least in my case. Think of two numbers; 0 and 10. The first - zero - is how much DIY skill I have. The second - 10 - is how many fingers I have. The first number I can't change, and the second I don't want to! :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
I just got an offer for peerless XXLS12 P830845
I was thinking that all XXLS are more or less the sime but when I place this in winISD I get those results



so should I go with the new one XXLS P835017 ? or will P830845 be just fine ?
- I can get P830845 for 158Euro (~215$)
- P830517 is around 250Euro (~340/350$)

- and XLS10 830452 can get for 92Euro (125$) or two for 180Euro ( 240$)

could some one please simulate those two drives XXLS12 for 75L and advise what to use ? as I'm not shure if I getting right results...
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
I have some left overs of 3/4 (19mm) MDF so I give it to be cut.
as I have 850x600cm two sheats I calculate that I need around 19cm netto high for a box to give me around 75L netto.

This is what I have in plan, with driver in the midle


I think, I will go with P830845 which is like 158euro
or P830517 which is more expensive.

Don't know how high Qtc will effect performance...
I see that people on the net have been useing P830845 in 50L (I belive with LT) and thay are happy with result.

but I like the idea,that GM point out, of Qtc 0.57 in 75L for P80517
 
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