[Da Wiz]

It's not a "belief" it is fact. If you "believe" something else, you are just fooling yourself.

 

[NBPk402]

There are a lot of people that can mod speakers to sound better than stock. Where do you think the manufacturers got their designs... from people who know how to design speakers. How about GSR Research for one that mods Klipsch speaker to improve the design? These very same people a lot of the time move from one Company to another., and they learned how to design with degrees and or experience.

Do you know how to use a mic and REW software...pretty easy to measure and compare your speaker to published specs from the manufacturer.

 

[RichardTS]

I guarantee you that if you had modern measurements of a brand new 60 year old Klipsch (or any other brand) of speaker and compared that with new measurements of a new production version of the same speaker, that the 50 year old version might still make sound that's not obviously terrible. But it is NOT going to be as good as the new version of the same speaker. Hobbyists, on average, aren't the best judges of whether a 50-70 year old speaker is "working fine" or not. I've experienced auditions of brand new $20,000 a pair "single driver-single voice coil" high-efficiency speakers that people were RAVING about. Except applause from a live audience sounded like meat sizzling on a skillet and nobody even NOTICED. Something was fundamentally wrong with the speakers and people were all chatting-up those speakers for how "great" they were when driven by appropriate vacuum tube electronics. I've been given demos of vintage-but-refurbished Klipsch speakers with tweeters that were not even operating and the person thought the sound was "great". And this person had done all the refurb work themselves... re-gluing several areas of the cabinet that had resonances, new electrical parts, re-wiring, new terminal posts. He knew the speakers inside and out... but was not able to tell the tweeters were MIA. That model had a fairly high crossover point to the tweeters, but still...

It’s been my experience that most people do not know what good sound is. Most of our youth thinks what comes out of the free iPhone ear buds is ‘good’. And yes, there are older folks who cannot tell whether they have a tweeter out or not.

There is also a factor that you did not mention-changes in what people call ‘good’. My 2009 LaScalas have updated crossovers (Klipsch calls them ‘revoiced’) and an improvement in the mid range horn that eliminates resonance in the horn itself. These two combine to eliminate a slight ‘chesty’ sound the older ones had. What didn’t change is something no one even talks about. The sound of these speakers is big and they sound noticeably bigger than ‘modern’ towers with a high excursion 5” woofer that only thinks it can reach low frequencies. Never mind the distortion that comes from high excursion.

I read every day on this forum that all modern amps and modern speakers sound basically the same.

I never read about people who have bought brand new speakers that sounded ‘wonderful’ in the store or when they were first set up at home but then sounded awful after about six weeks. Usually this is because the new speakers are fatiguing. But no one ever mentions this phenomenon any more. It’s real and it does indeed exist. And it cannot be measured.

I have just mentioned two audio characteristics that cannot be measured and that do indeed exist.

No one mentions them and most people will try to tell you they don’t exist so I am not real sure that the massive improvement in modern speakers is real either.

The idea that the entire world can be reduced to measurements is absurd. Particularly when there are still things that we don’t know how to measure.

 

[RichardTS]

Oh, but I do know how old equipment sounds and measures. And the new version will sound better because of modern crossover design software, improvements in materials, and better capacitors, inductors, and resistors that are available today that were not available 50 to 70 years ago. I grew up with speakers that ALL SOUNDED DIFFERENT because they didn't have crossover design software... they "tuned" crossovers by ear... and nobody was as good at that as software for optimizing crossovers. I've lived through the decades of speakers that are now 50-70 years old. I know exactly what they sounded like when they were new. So stop defending old equipment inappropriately and get real. 50+ year old paper cones are not as good as new paper cones... PERIOD. And pressed paper is not even close to being a great material for speaker cones. Especially when the crossovers have 50+ year old devices still installed. I am using loudspeakers manufactured in 1992. They have received new crossovers when the design was updated. They have received new tweeters 2 times, a new midrange driver 1 time, and new woofers 1 time... all in the name of keeping these speakers performing as well as possible. Each change made the speaker sound better because the manufacturer sweated the details, using better materials, better driver design, and improved crossover design. The elevation in performance of these speakers has been stunning and they were already among the top performers in their price range when they were new. To be fair, the manufacturer prompted me about when to do updates that were significant and they would specifically tell me to wait if there was nothing that made significant improvements available. And to save money, I installed the updated parts myself to avoid shipping 100 pound speakers repeatedly. People who over-romanticize the merits of older speakers need to get a grip. In the "old days" they knew NOTHING SPECIAL about making speakers. And making all speakers relatively neutral sounding (as you get today) was impossible due to the vagaries of speaker design that have been improved significantly with computer design software. Speakers used to sound like you were cupping your hands over your mouth, or pinching your nose, or had super-zingy sibilants... all things that computer design software has banished from speaker design. 50-70 years ago, the entire field of available speakers might get a "5" or "6" for accurate sound quality. Since computer design software has assisted with design of drivers, crossovers, and enclosures, the speaker industry is performing at about an "8.5" level because so many sound quality defects have been eliminated by using computer design solutions. Yes, the best speaker companies still perform endless hours of listening studies to confirm everything is working properly together.

‘50+ year old paper cones are not as good as new paper cones... PERIOD.’

And by what means do you know this? You also never addressed my comment about cone excursion. Modern crossover design will NOT fix the distortion caused by large non-linear excursions.

 

[Da Wiz]

‘50+ year old paper cones are not as good as new paper cones... PERIOD.’

And by what means do you know this? You also never addressed my comment about cone excursion. Modern crossover design will NOT fix the distortion caused by large non-linear excursions.

You're kidding? I have to explain materials science to you? OK... paper is made with organic fibers. Everything organic "decays" with time and exposure to oxygen and other gases in the atmosphere. Changes in temperature and humidity for 50+ years contribute to the process of breaking-down paper fibers and causing them to lose some of their grip on neighboring fibers. T
he cone may not fall apart, but after 50+ years, the paper cone is considerably "softer" that it was when brand new. That inescapably degrades sound quality.

 

[RichardTS]

Well, you may think so and act as if ‘science’ is behind you. However you continue to wrestle with the idea that large, low excursion woofers need the stiffness that modern speaker woofers need just to handle the excursion. While I haven’t done lab testing I feel pretty sure that the shape of the cone and the low excursion combine to provide enough stability. But you have only focused on ‘softness’ which is probably not nearly as significant as you think it is if the speakers have been in a climate controlled environment.

 

[Da Wiz]

Excursion only produces about half the sound from a high-efficiency woofer. The cone surface is still subject to vibration and resonances across the entire surface of the woofer. There are ZERO organic-based materials that do not break-down over time--with 1 exception that comes to mind... diamond is carbon, but acts more like a very stable mineral/metal than like something organic (anything with carbon in it is organic, generally). Whether the cone is polymer or paper, both are organic and both are subject to degredation over time that happens even if the woofer is brand new in a sealed box. Polymers get stiff and brittle, and paper gets "loose" as fibers degrade and loose some of their grip on neighboring fibers. This is a fact about EVERYTHING organic in every product ever manufactured. You learn this in materials science. Something I studied for 4 semesters in college, and messed with constantly as a young audiophile on a budget, refurbishing "old" components (including some Altec and Klipsch speakers among probably 20 other brands plus electronic components, tube and solid state). Being an engineer was quite a boon to an audiophile with a limited budget. The only cone materials that do NOT degrade with time and use are metal cones... aluminum is used in some speakers, and other metals have been used in woofers also. Glues are typically organic also and THEY degrade with time as well.

 

[RichardTS]

If excursion provides only half of the sound then the speaker operating like that is operating out of its design range and very obviously should be crossed at a lower point to avoid breakup. For at least 80 years now designers have strived for pure piston action.

So, if excursion provides only half the sound, what else is providing sound? Whatever it is it shouldn’t be providing ANY sound (in a perfect world).

 

[Da Wiz]

High efficiency woofers are crossed over at higher frequencies than conventionally designed woofers. Because of that, the higher frequencies in high efficiency woofers are created "in the cone" not by excursion. The wavelengths of the higher frequencies are too short to reproduce with pistonic motion of a 15-inch driver (like the La Scala). In conventional speakers, the crossover points are low enough for woofers that the woofers NEVER see the higher frequencies high-efficiency woofers see. The crossover point for the La Scala woofers is 450 Hz. In conventional speakers, 15-inch woofers would have crossover point no higher than about 180 Hz because of the wavelength issue. 15 inch drivers can't be pistonic at frequencies above about 180 Hz. There is no magic in speakers. You have to know the fundamentals to design speakers that are worthy of being commercial products. And the design requirements for conventional dynamic speakers, high-efficiency dynamic speakers, panel speakers, and 360-degree (omni) speakers are all different.