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Discussion Starter #1
Hi there,

Not sure how to explain this, I'll give it my best.

Pretty much all the info found here is how good the sub sounds, shaking the house, ...

More than a few year ago, I got enamoured with music and movies. I would stay on top of the news about new and great products. I was going to the best music and HT shop around, and staying countless hours listening and feeling the music and soundtracks on different systems.

I remember the first time I watched Lucas "Wow" disk when it came out. One bit caught my attention. The part when Indiana Jones and father are tied up, takes a swing and you can clearly hear the first pop as the the German hits Indy, and the second pop from the 2 heads bashing each other. 2 very distinct and clear "pops". And that was done with the old little Yamaha tower subs of the time, 8" drivers, 100w, 2 of them, in a room big enough to sit at least 8 people.

Years pass, life takes me to places, and I finally settled and have a place again.

I started to organise myself a movie / music room. Remembering the old days, I pick up a newer Yamaha 10" down firing box. Hmm... where's that fast action pop I used to feel and hear? The bass extension is there but it is all "fuzzy", not clear and define in a moment, but more a low end buzzing.

So, are there ways to find a sub based on how fast it performs, not how low it can go? I like lows of course, but I miss the fast and defined action I don't get with my present setup.

Thanks, and sorry to be so long !
 

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There are actually quite a number of good subs to choose from, but without knowing what your budget and room size are the recommendations might not apply. If you can supply us with that info I'm sure we can come up with something.
 

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There is no such thing as a "fast" sub per se. If a speaker doesn't produce the signal it is intended to in short enough of time window, it would show up in measurements as a distortion. The standard slew of measurements you will see on this forum as well as others - FR, harmonic distortion, group delay/spectral decay, and max output levels - tend to do a very good job of encompassing the overall performance of a subwoofer.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks!

Sorry about not enough info.
Jman, my room is about 7m(W) x 5m(L) x 3.5m(H) so 122.5 square meters, or 1318.58 square feet.
Budget is unfortunately not unlimited... 300$ to 500$ top.

SC, I'll try to get to know REW. And take a few measurements. Which ones would I need here? I guess a waterfall, ... anything else?
 

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Jman, my room is about 7m(W) x 5m(L) x 3.5m(H) so 122.5 square meters, or 1318.58 square feet. Budget is unfortunately not unlimited... 300$ to 500$ top.
Unless I miss my calculations that's over 4300 cubic feet. If so, there's really not a $500 subwoofer made that will be able to fill that much space. Anything in that price range would end up being overwhelmed I'm afraid.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Aie! math causing me trouble again... I meant 122.5 cubic meters or 1318 cubic feet.
Sorry, didn't have my morning coffee yet when I wrote that post! :)
 

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Aie! math causing me trouble again... I meant 122.5 cubic meters or 1318 cubic feet. Sorry, didn't have my morning coffee yet when I wrote that post! :)
Can you verify your room measurements? You originally wrote 7m(W) x 5m(L) x 3.5m(H), which is about 4300 cubic feet. If it's not that large then you would have some options.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Again... you are very right. My head is not too clear at the moment.

4300 cubic feet. Would 2 subs be enough then? Maybe building two 300$ subs instead of just one?

So, thinking out loud, the reason I don't have definition from my current setup is the room is too big for one sub only?

'cos from memory, my room is about the same size of the HT demo setup at the store I used to go, and they had great and defined bass "thump". I can't recall if they had one or two of those old Yamaha subs:

 

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I cant say which you will think will sound fast or slow but I like sealed designs but for budget I like horn designs. And for tactile performance I lean towards FLH such as a THT or other out there. This is not to say that a TH or other design cant do tactile just what I have experienced and what I deem as a super budget build.

That being said everyone has their own opinion so I would suggest having a listen to different subs for yourself and going from there. You could always buy a SI 15" and use it in a sealed, ported or horned cabinet and see for yourself.

Anyone that is after a certain type of bass experience really should listen to all the different types and then go from there. I would also recommend listening to cabinets built with the same driver other wise there will always be huge variances and this will be a never ending exercise.

But that being said and living in Taiwan we can only make suggestions as to what we think will work for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks a bunch!

Suggestions are the best advices I can have because, as you mentioned, I live in Taiwan and "demo" is not part of the vocabulary here. I can't demo anything. I have to rely on others opinions and feeling to get what I guess I will want. It's the same with my drums, mics, audio gear, etc... I can't take anything out of the box/package and try, they think the item is then "used" and they won't be able to sell it.

So, I will take all the info that you can share and tinker with it and hope for the best! :)

When you say "tactile", you mean the bass that I will feel, not hear, right?
For the size of the room, I guess I was leaning towards ported or horn. Horn does seem to take a lot of volume though, but probably the best "bang for the bucks" like you said.

Thanks again. I'll keep looking and asking questions, if you all don't mind! ;)
 

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I love dynamics in my bass systems. So for me I really like a capable L/C/R speaker that can handle everything from 60hz and up with lots of headroom. Then I just add whatever type of subwoofer I can fit in my room within budget for my application.

For me I was searching for very "fast," or dynamic bass for a long time but also wanted to have enough bass that it consumed my room. Like being underwater and then hearing an explosion. So I have built many different types of subs in this search. After spending to much money I have come to realize that I was missing the bass from 60-250hz. Sure an 8" can do this range great but I like the dynamics from a 12" or bigger.(ported/sealed) I think you can get the same type of dynamics from a 8" or 10" horned bass driver also as compared to the larger driver sealed and ported.

If you have plenty of room it is hard to deny the horned subwoofers for budget. If you dont have the room then ported is the next best thing. But I would make sure your mains are capable also. I have heard quite a few systems with dual 15's and they only went down to 45hz. The dynamics were amazing and after adding in the subwoofer I was in heaven.

SO if you are a DJ or into music and can listen to some Pro Audio speakers then give them a listen for an audition if you can. Subwoofers are not that hard to build and design so the low end might be your easiest part of your system.

But if you are thinking that the Yamaha subs sounded great in a room similar to yours then we need to rethink things. If your happy with those subs what else were you listening to in that setup?

Do you have a budget in mind?

What is the biggest size you would like to go with for a cabinet size?

I dont remember that subwoofer model and it appears like it is the older Yamaha model. I dont think there is anything that Yamaha makes that would do your room any justice. But some people dont need much to be happy. So what else do they have at the local store?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
But if you are thinking that the Yamaha subs sounded great in a room similar to yours then we need to rethink things. If your happy with those subs what else were you listening to in that setup?
I mentioned the older Yamahas as that was one of the best I could listen to at the time (mind you, it was over 20 years ago)... I don't remember what they had for mains at the time... memory falters after that long, but I do remember that they liked the PSB line a lot for HT.

Do you have a budget in mind?
well, between 300$ to 600$ would be reasonable.

What is the biggest size you would like to go with for a cabinet size?
I could do big if it were flat enough (meaning not too deep). I haven't seen flat rectangle builds that could be place along a wall, are there?

I dont think there is anything that Yamaha makes that would do your room any justice. But some people dont need much to be happy. So what else do they have at the local store?
I'm in the land of the cheap karaoke stuff, so my other choices are mostly cheap Chinese boxes, some Velodyne, Boston, Paradigm, etc but the name brands are 2 to 3 times more expensive here than in the local US market.

The only local company that offers reasonable quality is Usher. They have this sub:

subwoofer : 12"(1202SUB)
sensitivity: 69dB @ 1 watt / 1m
nominal impedance: 4 ohms
frequency response (-3 dB): 20 Hz ~ 150 Hz
output: 350 watts (4 ohms)
250 watts (8 ohms)
crossover frequencies: 40 Hz~160 Hz
weight: 34.7 kgs
dimensions (w x d x h): 36.5 cm x 47 cm x 50 cm

They are using this woofer that I also could buy by itself to build a ported sub:

http://www.usheraudio.com/files/drivers/1202SUB.pdf
 

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What depth are you trying to limit yourself to?

I am thinking that a SI 15" woofer is going to be about 350 delivered to you. I don't know for sure but that's a rough estimate based on shipping prices. I don't know about your taxes and duties.

Horns can be any size you would like. If you want to keep the depth down then don't go with a big woofer horn. If you have 15" for depth then you are fine for a 12" or 15" no-horn subwoofer.

Do you have an amp yet for this subwoofer? Or does the 3-600 include that budget?

Are there any car subwoofers in your area that you can get for within budget? JBL, Alpine, Kicker, or Fi.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I may be able to source an amp, but for now, let's assume I will need one. I was looking at the Bash amps lately.

Reading through some more (close to information overload!) I really like the form factor of the ported Sonosub. Now that's cool! Got me into thinking... I have djembes at home. Some of them go really deep. Would a sub in the shape of a djembe work? Well maybe not, they might look ok when small enough, but in oversized shape, it might look too funky! Sorry, just thinking out loud!

Now, car audio subwoofers we have here! Actually, 2/3rd of the woofers available are for car audio. (the other 1/3 are just pulls from cheap old boxes) Would that work? I just passed over them thinking they are just for show, big booming sound but no music... was I wrong and biased?
 

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I dont know if that spot will be the best place to put a subwoofer but if you only have one spot then that looks fine. And yes a lot of car audio subwoofers will work just fine for a home subwoofer.

As far as a djembes, you can make anything sealed and air tight work. As long as it can also take the inside air pressures. I have seen many different subwoofer designs and some you would never think they were a subwoofer.

I dont know what prices are for you there so I cant really suggest an amp. For a SI 15" you would need at least a 500 watt amp. You will want some sort of EQ also. Be that external or internal of your AVR.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I can play with placement a little. I have 2 more spots available, depending on the size of the sub.

Reading still...
Question: Is Dayton and Usher the same thing? I see their names linked often...

Looks like Usher is making some quality parts available as well. I believe I can go directly to the factory and pick up this 15":
http://www.usheraudio.com/files/drivers/1503HM.pdf

Either that one or the 12" could be used doing a SonoSub?

Just for fun, would something like this work out?
Forgive the quick rendering...
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Found a driver that might be good.
It's a used JL Audio 12w0-4. Got it for 30$ ! :) not much to lose!

Used the calculator to get something like this:

 

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There is no such thing as a "fast" sub per se. If a speaker doesn't produce the signal it is intended to in short enough of time window, it would show up in measurements as a distortion. The standard slew of measurements you will see on this forum as well as others - FR, harmonic distortion, group delay/spectral decay, and max output levels - tend to do a very good job of encompassing the overall performance of a subwoofer.
More importantly is inductance. Inductance (Le) is the dark evil twin of a tubby response. More information on the subject can be found in this paper. And of course there are eddy currents and all kinds of other good stuff too.

With the slew of DIY drivers that are out there just make sure you pick the right one. I realized as I typed that last sentence that it does not help you at all. Check out linear excursion capability along side rough T/S specs (WinISD is not the end-all-be-all but it gives you a rough idea). BL distortion is a big player in the un-happy spectrum of human hearing so you will want to stick with a driver with adequate Xmax.

Oops, I now see that I'm late to the party!
 
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