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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

This is going to be my first attempt at building a subwoofer. Im going to use 2 Peerless 12" PR and 1 12" Peerless XLS. The amp I wanted to use is the OAudio 300w BASH amp. I made a winISD project and was wondering is someone could take a look at it and tell me if I can make any improvements to go lower/louder ..

I have attached the project file and the driver file.

Thanks!
 

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Elite Shackster
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The model looks good to me :T You might want to consider adding a HPF at about 14hz for that extra peace of mind, but all in all the model looks good and it should be a good little sub. I personally wouldnt try to push too much more out of what you already have, you want a good balance between performance and headroom, which I think you probably have there.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the reply :D nice to know im going the right direction. I have made another one with different driver/PR's and amp, this time 15" driver 18" PR and 1000w amp and bit bigger box. I think this one is better then the other one hrhr :D Could you take a look at the new one aswell ?

I have attached the files

Thanks!
 

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Just remember cut once and measure twice! Building a sub is one of the most fun projects I've ever done. I think you will find it equally rewarding. Just make sure you got the right tools for each step.
 

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Elite Shackster
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Hold on there a second, so the original model below is just an idea? If nothing is set in stone, and the components are all to be chosen, then it might be better to state a budget, your design goals and how big of a sub you can accommodate. Out of interest, what is it about using pr's that attracts you?
 

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Hold on there a second, so the original model below is just an idea? If nothing is set in stone, and the components are all to be chosen, then it might be better to state a budget, your design goals and how big of a sub you can accommodate. Out of interest, what is it about using pr's that attracts you?
Well the budget I have for the subwoofer is about 700 to 900 euros for the drivers/amp. Building material isnt that expensive so im not worried about that.

The design goals I have are the basic goals of subwoofer I guess, it needs to go low (<20Hz) and loud(+spl for the movies hrhr) and still sound great at high volumes (SQ and the "go low" part are the priorities for me) and the reason Im going for PR's is because of the size of the subwoofer enclosure. I dont want it to get too big, like 80/90 liter max, but I do want it to go low/loud when needed. I read some things about PR's that they extend the lower frequencies if you cant use large/long vents in a sub-enclosure. Also another reason for me to go PR is, I think from what I have read so far, the PR way is the easiest way to achieve the goals I have set.

Im trying to learn from this aswell so I can make better stuff in the future.

Thanks!
 

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Elite Shackster
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Well the budget I have for the subwoofer is about 700 to 900 euros for the drivers/amp. Building material isnt that expensive so im not worried about that.
Euros? The plot thickens :heehee: Where abouts in Europe are you. I ask as shipping for the AE drivers can be a bit of a killer, but its not a major issue.

The design goals I have are the basic goals of subwoofer I guess, it needs to go low (<20Hz) and loud(+spl for the movies hrhr) and still sound great at high volumes (SQ and the "go low" part are the priorities for me) and the reason Im going for PR's is because of the size of the subwoofer enclosure. I dont want it to get too big, like 80/90 liter max, but I do want it to go low/loud when needed. I read some things about PR's that they extend the lower frequencies if you cant use large/long vents in a sub-enclosure. Also another reason for me to go PR is, I think from what I have read so far, the PR way is the easiest way to achieve the goals I have set.

Im trying to learn from this aswell so I can make better stuff in the future.

Thanks!
Your right about pr's, they basically act like a port without the need for the space porting requires. Have you looked at drivers/distributors, do you have an idea where you might purchase your driver and pr's from? Given your budget, do you want 1 sub or 2 what did you have in mind for power?

I'm just trying to build a picture of what might be best for you, we can get a better design for you then.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks for your reply!

I have checked the internet but they dont sell that much good stuff in the Netherlands for DIY. I dont mind the shipping costs heh so ill probably order my stuff directly from AE. The amp power .. I guess depends on what I can find in plateamp form :D I've seen a 1000 watt plateamp so ill stick with that for now. 1 subwoofer should be enough for me.
 

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Elite Shackster
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Right, well the AE drivers are very good, but there is a company called europe audio which should be easy to google, that distribute drivers from various manufacturers throughout Europe, and there is also BladeIce in the UK that do Fi Audio drives. All of those options are worth looking into.

If your atfer a 1KW plate amp, then Ellemental Designs do a 1300 watt plate amp, and Dayton do a 1KW plate amp, and I think I'm right in saying Europe Audio carry the dayton stuff. However you should consider a pro audio amplifier like the Behringer EP4000 or similar. These will give you much more power for less money, and offer 2 channels, so adding a second sub in the future should you wish to do so results in the amplification for that second sub essentially being free :T The second sub addition is much cheaper as a result, and I think dual subs, if you can accommodate them, is a big plus. You could also power a bass shaker or similar from that channel if you wanted, so a pro amp gives you more options to play with should you consider one.

If you pick a driver, and I think the AE AV15-H would be an excellent driver as I dont know of any other high quality 15" driver that will work in such a small cab, then we can look at your cab and amp. You look to have a good handle on using WinISD, so you can build yourself something great :T BTW, for you budget, if you used a pro amp you could build 2 AV15-H subs, or a single sealed dual driver version, so that may well be an option worth looking into.
 

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Elite Shackster
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The AE driver will be able to handle peaks well in excess of 1KW, but even so the EP4000 is likely to produce less than the official figures with bench tests showing 950 wpc is more realistic sustained. Apart from all this, an amps output is dynamic, not fixed (otherwise all sounds would be the same volume), and most of the time the amp will be producing much less than anything like its full capability.

Ive built several subs using the AE drivers, and powering from the EP4000 as well as the ED 1300watt plate amp, and the match in both cases was excellent. In short, you have nothing to worry about with these drivers with these amps. On top of this, your more likely to damage the drivers by clipping a weak amp than you are from overdoing it with a powerful amp, not least as you can hear when the drivers are being overworked so you will know if you hit their limits. Occasional bottoming out of the driver isnt a real issue, its only if you do it regularly your likely to damage the drivers.
 

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Elite Shackster
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Which pr's does it use. I think I would be tempted to tune it a little higher myself, as its output is not that much more than a sealed version in a smaller box, and is less than a dual driver version in a box of similar size. I would personally choose a dual driver version over this model as it comes in within budget, but would be the much better sub over this pr version.
 

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Elite Shackster
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The mass was slightly out on your model, which doesnt actually affect it that much, but are you aware you cant change the mass on AE's pr's?

What were you trying to model with 2 drivers. A single pr sub, or a single sealed sub?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
No I didnt know that :p

This is what it says on their site:
"The PR15-1400 is our 15" 1400 gram passive radiator. The diaphragm is made from 3/4" thick solid MDF with 350grams of mass added. The suspension can support additional mass, up to 1800grams total. "

So I thought it was possible ...

How are you able to get it to work with only 2 drivers, in a smaller box :S ?? I end up with a box thats tuned for 56hz at 80liter... 2 drivers no pr's in a closed box
 

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Elite Shackster
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You can order the weight you want for your pr's from them, but its not adjustable once you get your pr's, with some manufacturers it is. You could actually get your specified weight delivered from them, with upto 1800g of added mass, so your modelling is ok, now I realise what your intentions are. Stupid me :D

When I am talking about a twin driver model, I am talking about a sealed sub only, with no pr's. A sealed sub with 2 H drivers needs only be 80 litres, but can take a full 2000 watts input power. It also has the benefit of 2 fully powered drivers to increase output. This sealed dual driver design would outperform your single driver passive radiator model at all frequencies. Also, if you used a dual opposed alignment, it will cancel out cabinet resonances which as another added benefit.

Personally, if you go the PR route, I would tune a little higher, but if your going to go the pro amp route, then a dual driver sub is marginally more expensive when it comes to the purchase cost of 2 drivers versus one driver and 2 pr's, but gives greater performance. By tuning higher with a pr model, you will increase output around tune beyond that of the sealed subs, but at the expense of lower frequency output.

Give me ten mins, and I'll post some models comparisons for your pr designs vs a dual driver sealed design.
 

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Elite Shackster
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Right, Ive run a few models, and in all cases the dual driver sealed sub is the top performer. On top of that, I think a sealed sub offers the best sound quality.

Personally, given your budget allows it, I would go with 2 of the AV15-H drivers in a sealed enclosure powered from a pro amp like the EP4000. One thing you need to keep in mind though, which we havent addressed yet, is that you will need some form of eq with the sealed sub. Do you have any. If not, there are plenty of options to discuss, with varying implications to the budget.

If you go with the pr design, and dont have added eq, then you will need a design that tunes a little higher IMO, like around the 20hz mark.

FYI, a dual opposed sealed sub will look something like this:
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thanks for the help! Why does the PR version need to be tuned higher (what is the effect of it, its now at 15hz I think) ?

I will try the dual driver sealed sub. I dont have an EQ/filter though that would be the next thing I wanted to look in to. Does it perform
 

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Elite Shackster
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OK, in the image below you can see 3 response curves. There is a sealed subs response, and 2 passive radiator designs. You can see your pr model (15hz tuned) , and how its output compares to the single driver sealed model, there is very little difference in output. Now if you look at the second pr model I added which is tuned higher (25hz), you can see its offering much more output around tune than either of the other 2. This is because the tune is increasing the output. If you tune very low, then your getting ever closer to how the sub would respond in a standard sealed enclosure, and given the size restrictions on your cabinet, the gains from the pr are going to be minimal.

When your restricted on the size of your cabinet, you really are restricting the amount of low end output a pr or port is able to offer. This may well lead to the fact that a low tune is somewhat pointless. A higher tune will increase output more at the higher tune (as you can see in the image) so if output is what your after, then this is how to get it, but obviously its at the expense of the lowest frequencies.

The reason I suggested going sealed, is that with sealed subs all the output duties fall upon the drivers themselves, and in this case your budget allows a second driver and output will the exceed that of a pr design, as long as you use eq to get the bottom end response in. If you have something like Audyssey built into your AVR, then this will do this eq for you. I also happen to think that sealed subs offer the best sound quality. If you can get your cabinet to around 100 litres volume, you'll end up with a little power house of a sub.

You can of course, just stick with the pr design, and it is a working model, I just dont think it will sound as good as the sealed sub, and its a bit pointless spending the money on 2 pr's when the cost differential between them and a second driver is so marginal. Keep in mind shipping costs, with the pr model you will have to ship 3 packages, while with the sealed you only need to ship 2. Of course, there is always the other option of sourcing components from a euro distributor. Did you look at europe audio?
 

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